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 Post subject: Sawyer Autumn Mist
PostPosted: September 13th, 2004, 11:31 pm 
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Location: Wavecrest, ON
This past week I rented an Autumn Mist for a short Algonquin Trip. The two others paddled a tandem. This was my first opportunity to paddle a solo and it turned out to be a great experience. I'm hooked! :D I'm looking for info on the dimensions of this boat so that I can compare it to other solos. It seems that it is no longer manufactured and I am having trouble finding much info on it. Also, any comparisons to the more common solo boats would be appreciated.

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PostPosted: September 14th, 2004, 12:11 am 
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Specs from an old Sawyer cat. I got from Swift. I believe they both manufactured and sold the Sawyers for Canada back then.

Length 14' 10"

Gunwale width 26"

Waterline width 28"

Bow height 17"

Stern height 15.5"

Golden glass 50lbs

Ex Kevlar 44lbs

Superlight kevlar 36lbs

No mention of rocker.

I own 3 solos but havn't paddled the Autumn mist, so can't help with comparisons.

Cheers Bill


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PostPosted: September 14th, 2004, 1:44 pm 
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Joined: May 9th, 2002, 7:00 pm
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Location: Tillsonburg, Ontario Canada
You wouldn't happen to have the specs for a sawyer cruiser would you?

I know Swift still make the odd boat in the sawyer line. Last year (? 2 maybe...) they did a run of Cruisers. I missed out on this run, was offered a boat, but did not have the funds. I do know that they do them in batches, due to licencing if what I am told is correct. A friend got two of the Cruisers in Champagne Kevlar with cherry trim. Sweet.

I have always liked the cruiser - my favorite so far...- but its a bit too tender for my wife, especially with the kids, so I ended up with a used ultralight Kipawa.
Nice boat overall.

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michael


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 Post subject: Cruiser or 222 cruiser
PostPosted: September 14th, 2004, 2:19 pm 
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2 in the cat. The Cruiser and the 222 Cruiser do you know wich one.

I think they had a used cruiser at the gravenhurst location a couple of weeks ago. Wasn't in great shape though. and I'm not sure what model cruiser it was.
Bill


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: September 14th, 2004, 7:12 pm 
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Mykel

I'm leaving early in the morning for a 7 day canoe trip. So I'll give you the cat. specs on both cruisers and leave you to sort out which spec you need.

Cheers Bill


CRUISER

Length 17' 9"

Gunwale width 33"

Waterline width 30.5"

Bow height 20"

Center depth 12.5"

stern height 20"

Glass 70lbs ex kevlar 58lbs superlight kevlar 46lbs


222 CRUISER

length 18' 6"

gunwale width 36"

Waterline width 32"

Bow height 20"

Center depth 14"

Stern height 18.5"

Glass 76lbs Ex kevlar 65lbs Superlight kevlar 56lbs

No specs list rocker


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: September 14th, 2004, 7:15 pm 
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Location: Grand Haven, Michigan U.S.A.
I suspect he means the Lynn Tuttle Cruiser as opposed to the DY designed 222.

L=17'9"
Width at 4" 30.5"
Width at Rails 33"
Max Width 33"
Bow Depth 20"
Mid Depth 12.5"
Weight 66# (Goldenglass), 53# (Superlight goldenglass), 56# Exp. Kevlar, 46# Ultralight Kevlar
Performance Capacity 530#
Certified Safe Capacity 690#

PK


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PostPosted: September 14th, 2004, 7:21 pm 
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Location: Grand Haven, Michigan U.S.A.
Oh, here is some classic Harry Roberts prose...

This 17'9" tourter is the world's standard for swift, silent elegance. Used by most rangers in Canada's Quetico Provincial Park as their personal canoe because it is fast, light, easy to handle and seaworthy. The Cruiser has a very solid"feel" in the waves and is absolutely predictable. It's the perfect tourer for couples, because it paddles with such ease.

I've found a great advertisement for the Sawyer Cruiser in a 1982 issue of Canoe. It's truly a great read (as all Sawyer ads were). Harry espousing anything on canoeing was entertaining. Unfortunately, I'm not going to type the whole thing... Sorry!!

PK


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: September 14th, 2004, 7:48 pm 
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Location: Tillsonburg, Ontario Canada
Thanks all!!

It was / is the 17'9" version.

I looked at a used original sawyer with tractor seats a few years ago, but it was in pretty rough shape considering the 800.00 asking price. Would still love to have Swift build me one in kevlar.....maybe next run...

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michael


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: September 15th, 2004, 11:18 am 
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Location: Wavecrest, ON
I would love to hear from anyone who has paddled an Autumn Mist. How does it handle compared to other solos? I have no point of reference to compare it to anything else and I'm curious to hear what others have to say about it. How would it compare to an Osprey which seems to have somewhat similar dimensions? I plan to paddle solo along with groups in the future and this will help me to choose what design to try next. I found it tough to keep up with the tandem, especially when crossing lakes, but I'm sure that this has more to do with my technique and strength than the design of the canoe. I also found it difficult to heel it over and paddle on one side as I have done when soloing in a tandem. Perhaps the Autumn Mist is not designed for this style of paddling. A double blade would have been nice I think. We had a bit of wind and chop and I had no problems there, in fact I had better luck keeping up in those conditions. Also on some river and creek sections I found it easier to keep pace. Again, with so little experience in a solo I don't know how valid my observations are. It could just be me. :-?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: September 15th, 2004, 11:56 am 
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Griz, the Autumn Mist was designed by David Yost, I believe. One of the commonalities in all his boats is that they are user friendly, and I have yet to find one that isnt stable when heeled. I have paddled most all of his designs except the Shockwave. However its been a verrry long time since I tried the Autumn Mist. If this one doesnt have a tractor seat, it can be heeled over. However you may find that that was not DY's intended purpose. I paddled a Bell Magic over the last weekend, it was a DY boat and yes it heels over beautifully and firmy and doesnt dump you. In this way I was able to make Freestyle turns but the radius was quite big. The aim in the Magic was for a solo that glides well and can be comfortable sitting.
Along about the late '80s there seemed to be quite a few performance boats coming from Sawyer/Swift , most were DY's brainchildren. (Steve Scarborough was in there too). As I recall it it does not handle the same as the Osprey. It was years apart paddling the two, and the Osprey strikes me as being slower, and the bow being fuller. Maybe memory is inaccurate. I am also personally fond of basically symmetrical boats. I like to go forward and backward equally easily. The Osprey is not symetrical. The Osprey however does have quite good initial stability, but I feel its performance is lacking when you add a human.
The last time I saw an Autumn Mist was about six years ago in North Carolina at a motorcycle shop. There were at least five of them there still in their rotting plastic wrap. If anyone would like to do a Google Search for motorcycle shops in NC near New Bern, we might find a bargain.
I look back at the 1980's as a very fertile time for designers...they were looking for performance in canoes. Kayaks and WalMart were not yet on the scene. Ever since I feel things have been "dumbed down" for the mass market and there are fewer performance options out there.


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PostPosted: September 15th, 2004, 12:05 pm 
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Location: Grand Haven, Michigan U.S.A.
Yep, I've been in one. The Sawyer Autumn Mist is built as a tripping solo built for bigger paddlers and bigger loads. Figure 300# for paddler and gear and still achieving decent performance. Now for comparison... the Autumn Mist and the Osprey are dimensionally similar.... but they fit different styles of paddling. The Autumn Mist was designed for sit and switch or what Harry Roberts (marketing guru for Sawyer) called American touring technique. This best involves a bent paddle and switching sides every 4-10 strokes. Sure it works for J-stroking, but ... Harry commissioned David Yost to design the boat to suit sit and switch. So it doesn't surprise me that the Mist paddles poorly in Canadian Style.

Been in the Osprey too. The Osprey is a more diverse usage boat... It's obviously a reasonable flatwater boat that can be paddled on rivers and in a pinch could trip pretty well on whitewater. I believe that the Autumn Mist is probably slightly quicker due to it's narrower waterline width and finer lines. But a good paddler could surely paddle an Osprey faster than a Mist. Conversely, the Osprey is more maneuverable with the higher rocker.

I've never paddled those two boats back to back... and I'd love to have had the opportunity to paddle both boats in similar conditions. But I see the Autumn Mist being a better lake paddling boat and the Osprey being a slightly better boat in current. That all said, I think that you could enjoy either boat...

PK

PK


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PostPosted: September 15th, 2004, 11:19 pm 
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Location: Wavecrest, ON
Thank you Kim and pknoerr, great comments. This seems to fit with my experience. The Mist was perfectly stable heeled over, in fact I found it to be extremely stable. It's just that it didn't seem track well when paddled Canadian style (which I prefer) especially as I tried to apply more power. I've done a bit of solo paddling in a tandem and I expected the Autumn Mist to respond better to this style than it did. Switching every few stokes seemed to to be much more efficient, which surprised me. This one did not have a contoured seat, it had a regular fixed one. It was quite confortable in the kneeling position. I spent 3 days in it, in varying conditions and definitely enjoyed it very much. I wouldn't hesitate to take one on another trip.

Interesting discussion.
Cheers :)

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PostPosted: September 16th, 2004, 5:54 pm 
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Griz,

In my opinion very few solo canoes paddle well Canadian Style (heeled over with both knees in one side of the bilge). In general, as the boats become faster and have a finer entry, this situation is magnified. I own four solos, and only my Mad River Guide paddles well Canadian Style. The rest paddle much better level, and then heeled only to turn. If I paddle a tandem, I will almost always slide over to the rail and narrow the boat creating a narrower, deeper profile to the water all the time. This narrower deeper profile generally creates a hull with less wetted surface, and hence, the boat is often faster, however it is more susceptible to wind. Boats built like the Autumn Mist, and as Kim stated the Bell Magic, all the Wenonah boats, and the Souris River Tranquility, and others, is that these boats already present a narrow, deeper profile, so heeling over is not necessary.

PK


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 Post subject: heeled or not
PostPosted: September 17th, 2004, 1:50 am 
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Posts: 537
Griz_ wrote:
[...]
>I also found it difficult to heel it over and paddle on one side as
>I have done when soloing in a tandem. Perhaps the Autumn Mist is not
>designed for this style of paddling.

I wonder if there is any canoe that is (really) designed to be
paddled heeled (for going forward), and certainly not a solo canoe.
I do know several tandems that paddle very well that way, but that
is more or less accidental, I guess.

The advantage of a solo canoe is (or should be) that you do not have
to paddle them heeled, like you have to with tandem canoes? If you
have to paddle a solo canoe heeled, I think it is probably too wide
(for you)? (Indeed pknoerr, the MRC Guide is the only solo canoe
that I paddle heeled when I it is my turn to paddle that one :-)
If I preferred to solo paddle a canoe heeled all the time,
I would favor a small and narrow tandem canoe instead -- like
the venerable MRC Malecite. And with this talk here about old
Sawyer/Yost designs still being made occasionally by Swift, it got
me wondering if they would make me their own Quetico 15'10" design
again (instead of the Osprey that I could not get this year :-( . The
Quetico 15'10" design was the nicest tandem canoe for solo work that
I have experienced (as far as I can remember), heeled or even level
to some extent. (doubt^weigh...)

Kim wrote:
[..]
>I look back at the 1980's as a very fertile time for designers...
>they were looking for performance in canoes. Kayaks and WalMart were
>not yet on the scene. Ever since I feel things have been "dumbed
>down" for the mass market and there are fewer performance options
>out there.

Couldn't agree more. And I also have the feel that many are really
missing the point:
We-no-nah for instance should take a lesson from their own Vagabond
and Sandpiper designs that have a popularity (at least here as I
noticed) that I think says something about what people look for in
solo canoes? If they would do some serious designing in that kind of
boats in stead of their longer (hope to) go fast designs,
who knows what that could turn out?

Dirk Barends


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: September 17th, 2004, 12:02 pm 
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pknoerr wrote:
Griz,

In my opinion very few solo canoes paddle well Canadian Style (heeled over with both knees in one side of the bilge). In general, as the boats become faster and have a finer entry, this situation is magnified. I own four solos, and only my Mad River Guide paddles well Canadian Style. The rest paddle much better level, and then heeled only to turn. If I paddle a tandem, I will almost always slide over to the rail and narrow the boat creating a narrower, deeper profile to the water all the time. This narrower deeper profile generally creates a hull with less wetted surface, and hence, the boat is often faster, however it is more susceptible to wind. Boats built like the Autumn Mist, and as Kim stated the Bell Magic, all the Wenonah boats, and the Souris River Tranquility, and others, is that these boats already present a narrow, deeper profile, so heeling over is not necessary.

PK

Another bar discussion. The solo boats that I have paddled that paddle well when heeled a little Canadian style seem to be the ones whose stems still are in the water for their flat-boat waterline length. The ones whose stems are out of the water now are in reality shorter boats, and that is not always a good thing if you are trying to make speed.
In a solo boat it shouldnt be "necessary" to paddle Canadian style as the prpose of a solo boat is to make it easier for you to reach the water on both sides of the boat. But "necessary" isnt the same as "I'd like to paddle that way cause I feel like it!".


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