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Are you in favour of registering canoes
Yes 4%  4%  [ 4 ]
No 91%  91%  [ 82 ]
Don't know yet 4%  4%  [ 4 ]
Total votes : 90
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 Post subject: Registration?
PostPosted: February 1st, 2011, 8:47 am 
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Location: winnipeg
How do you all feel about this mandatory canoe registration for instructors and trip leaders (including non-profit and informal trip leaders)?

Personally, it looks to me like more administration/red-tape, along with a fee for all that that won't do anything to improve safety. It looks to me like something insurance companies and lawyers might like, but I don't see the benefit to me (other than having a document that says I have a "fleet").

Here is some info from PC, which I seem to recall supported this (but could be wrong about that):

http://www.paddlecanada.com/resources/i ... s-faq.html

Here is the Transport Canada site: http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafety/oe ... es-457.htm


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 Post subject: Re: Registration?
PostPosted: February 1st, 2011, 9:03 am 
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And don't forget that if you don't have a bill of sale, you have to have a notarized declaration. :(

Haven't looked up what a notary public fee is going to be for doing the forms, but I'm sure it will cost more than the $50 TC is going to charge for the actual registration.

As a member of the exec of a community volunteer paddling club, these regs are not going to help encourage people to be leaders. We will have to register all our club boats (a pain and more volunteer time) but some people will want to lead trips using their own boat, won't want to register it, so won't lead trips.

I've talked to some TC bureaucrats about these regs and it's truly a voyage to another world. Maybe with an election coming the political level will be sensitive to complaints from the community.


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 Post subject: Re: Registration?
PostPosted: February 1st, 2011, 9:32 am 
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Location: HFX, Nova Scotia canada
This is getting crazy, am I going to have to register my bike when I go out for bike club evening rides, or my boots to do a nature walk? I can sort of understand some one having to register in a commercial operation(so the gov can get tax money), actually why is the canoe registered? Is it to ensure it floats? Next will be canoe/kayak inspections........


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 Post subject: Re: Registration?
PostPosted: February 1st, 2011, 9:45 am 
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Wow :o Who is going to enforce this nonsense? Seems like a unwarranted punitive penalty to restrict paddling and paddling education, not improve it.

This to me seems to be a bunch of gobbledy gook to nail the few irresponsible commercial operators in case some client claims injury.

For those that have canoes that were passed along in the family and the maker is out of business and there never was a bill of sale..good luck..you can't lead trips.

There was a recent thread about passing on skills to the younger generation. Good luck. Now the government wants to tell you how to do that.

And can I bring in my grandson into Canada to lead a trip for him and a friend? Or do I have to register my boat?

You ought to get rid of a few bureaucrats. Clearly they have too much time on their hands.


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 Post subject: Re: Registration?
PostPosted: February 1st, 2011, 10:16 am 
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Joined: November 11th, 2007, 9:05 am
Posts: 46
From Paddle Canada:
Quote:
Do my students or clients need to register their personal boats if they bring them along?
No, only the leaders boat needs to be registered. If the leader is in a tandem canoe or kayak that is owned by the course participant then that vessel would be classified as a commercial vessel and would need to be registered.


So the leader can't paddle anything but a registered boat on a canoe trip. He can't trade places with another paddler.

In case of an accident, charge the person in the registered boat.


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 Post subject: Re: Registration?
PostPosted: February 1st, 2011, 11:06 am 
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I just opened my newsletter from Paddle Canada and read through the regulations and FAQs. This is very bad news for the paddling community. I always cringe when lawyers get involved.

It is not just that instructors and leaders have to fill out a lot of paperwork and pay a fee (although that is a hoop that I hoped not to have to jump through), it is really about the effect this will have on paddling volunteers and on their willingness to lead and help other paddlers.
I am an instructor and I will eventually come to terms with the new regulations because, it seems, I have no choice if I wish to continue instructing, however, I believe there are a large number of paddlers who volunteer their time to go out with and to help out less experienced paddlers. Will they always be considered to be "the leader"? Paddle Canada says that this is a grey area but, knowing lawyers and have some little understanding of the way the courts work, I believe that, in the event of a disaster, the courts will consider these volunteers to be "the leader" and therefore be subject to prosecution. Even if these volunteers were to jump through the hoops to get everyone to sign off and announce to their families that no one is leading the trip, when the **** hits the fan, there is a chance that the most experienced/trained individual will be held to be "the leader". Why would anyone want to risk her/his future?
This is a sad day for paddling.
I will be relaying my concerns to Paddle Alberta, Paddle Canada, to my MP and to the Minister of Transport.
I've dashed this off in the middle of a fit of frustration so maybe someone out there can help me see how this is not so bad???
Ralph


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 Post subject: Re: Registration?
PostPosted: February 1st, 2011, 11:11 am 
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A while back, I was disappointed with how ORCKA was operating, so I switched my membership over to PC.

Now, I'm even more disappointed with Paddle Canada, mainly due to completely ridiculous initiatives like this one.

Many of us own a veritable fleet of canoes (I have a basement FULL). Am I supposed to register each and every one of them because I may be using them when teaching paddling?
What about my sea kayaks?
What about the 8 canoes the Outdoor Ed program has at school?

Did I miss something here?
Where does a laughable idea like this stem from?

... Wait a second... is it April 1st already? :tsk:


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 Post subject: Re: Registration?
PostPosted: February 1st, 2011, 11:15 am 
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Joined: September 29th, 2005, 5:57 pm
Posts: 643
OK -

This does not apply to "pleasure craft".

Check out this link illustrating what a pleasure craft is:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafety/bu ... 14-eng.htm

Do not the examples of "pleasure craft" here cover the kind of canoeing use you guys are talking about?

Certainly a solo canoe - no passengers, however defined - is a pleasure craft, unless you have contracted to carry cargo.

I think Paddle Canada has reading comprehension problems.

-jmc


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 Post subject: Re: Registration?
PostPosted: February 1st, 2011, 11:22 am 
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Quote:
Do not the examples of "pleasure craft" here cover the kind of canoeing use you guys are talking about?


No. They are classified as commercial. Unless PC has completely misunderstood its conversations with TC. TC is the bad guy not PC.

http://www.paddlingcanada.com/paddlingnews.asp?id=82

Undoubtedly both PaddleCanada and the ACA are on their way out because of new regulations.


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 Post subject: Re: Registration?
PostPosted: February 1st, 2011, 11:30 am 
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Hi,
jmc, I have to agree with little red. If you are an instructor or a "leader" then your canoe(s) are considered to be commercial vessels and have to be registered. The definition of who is a leader is a little "grey" but it looks to me like it will include all people who volunteer to help out beginning/less experienced paddlers.
Ralph


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 Post subject: Re: Registration?
PostPosted: February 1st, 2011, 12:17 pm 
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Posts: 46
jmc wrote:
I think Paddle Canada has reading comprehension problems.



You may be right. Everything seems to be Paddle Canada's interpretations. I can't find anything on Transportation Canada websites to support what Paddle Canada is saying.

I experienced an interpretation problem many years ago when I was talked into getting a canoe association membership. One benefit listed was canoe trip insurance for all members. I asked for details later & was told that it had been clarified & was insurance for trip leaders. Then it became liability insurance for canoeing instructors when teaching a course. I think the final version was that it only applied to official courses run by the association itself. I gather the actual insurance coverage never changed, just the canoe association's interpretation of it.


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 Post subject: Re: Registration?
PostPosted: February 1st, 2011, 1:00 pm 
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I find it hard to believe that Paddle Canada did not discuss their interpretations of the regulations with Transport Canada before posting those interpretations, however, I could be wrong. I've fired off an email to Transport Canada asking them if Paddle Canada's interpretations are accurate.
Ralph


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 Post subject: Re: Registration?
PostPosted: February 1st, 2011, 1:34 pm 
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Joined: September 8th, 2006, 7:11 pm
Posts: 921
Location: winnipeg
Peter K. wrote:
And don't forget that if you don't have a bill of sale, you have to have a notarized declaration. :(


I rarely buy new canoes, and then rarely keep bills of sale, even if I get them. Most of the ones I buy I don't even ask for a receipt!

Further, a large number of canoes have no HIN if they are older, or home-built.

Even if I register the fleet, I'd have to pay $50 everytime I bought a new one.

I think the easiest way to avoid this mess is also the worst for canoeing, and that is to take no leadership role.

I found this with first-aid, too, in that a high level of certification means a higher level of responsibility/standard of care/liability.

Letting my Paddle Canada certifications lapse ought to help absolve me of my defacto leadership responsibility on trips (where I am unpaid, but more experienced than others in the group).

This is going to be a real hassle for schools and camps.

Indeed, I like it even less now.


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 Post subject: Re: Registration?
PostPosted: February 1st, 2011, 1:36 pm 
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While I would not want to be taken as an official Paddle Canada spokesperson on this one, I do know that PC had to work hard to get this level of clarification from Transport. Their interpretation is also completely consistent with I've heard directly from my local (Ottawa) TC representatives.

So far as I know, Paddle Canada was not consulted on the regs and is as surprised as everyone else. Paddle Canada is likely to make representations to TC to have the regs amended.


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 Post subject: Re: Registration?
PostPosted: February 1st, 2011, 1:50 pm 
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Location: winnipeg
Well, a bit of reading answers one concern - We can just fill out a declaration that we own the canoe (if it was made in Canada):

http://www.tc.gc.ca/wwwdocs/Forms/84-01 ... -03_BO.pdf

For those that own Wenonahs, Mad Rivers, Bells, or other strange and foreign craft, it is a bit more complicated:


Foreign-built only:

The evidence consists of the original Bill of Sale from the last foreign owner to the applicant for registration, duly authenticated by a Canadian consular officer, and any intervening Bill(s) of Sale demonstrating complete sequence of title from the last foreign owner to the applicant for registration. However, if the Bill of Sale has been executed previously, and under seal of a foreign or Canadian notary, or a lawyer, the customary authentication is not required.

Further, if at the time of application, the vessel was registered in a foreign country, before Canadian registration could be effected, the owner shall provide evidence in the form of an original or true copy of a written document, such as a Deletion Certificate or an Abstract or Transcript of Registry. This provides proof that the foreign registry is closed and is free and clear of all encumbrances. The Registrar at the vessel's foreign port of registry issues these documents.


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