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PostPosted: November 9th, 2012, 9:07 pm 
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Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario Canada
Curly: I don't need a copy of the map but thanks for the generous offer.

What I wanted to know was whether the MNR depicted the Jocko River canoe route going through the private property all the way to the Ottawa River. If not, is there an "access point" that provides the means to be extracted from the river upstream from the private property?


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PostPosted: August 27th, 2014, 9:31 pm 
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Curly: The 'values' maps for Phase II of the current Nipissing Forest Management Plan (FMP) are now posted on the MNR's website. Access to this valuable resource is described earlier in this thread. Hope this helps! Good Luck with your research!


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PostPosted: September 4th, 2020, 3:21 pm 
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Did anyone ever find out anything more about this property on the Jocko River? I am having a similar quandary about the same property planning a trip on the Ottawa River. There is a campsite on the south-east side of the mouth of Jocko R where it meets the Ottawa. I saw it mentioned in a blog some years ago and I paddled past it once but just had a quick look to see where it was. Now I see that it is within the private property so I don't know if camping there is allowed.

The Jocko River Provincial Park map shows the park ending abruptly where the property boundary would be but does not show the property or give any explanation. The park plan does say the route is used for canoeing and connects to the Ottawa river so one would think that final km or so through the property would be admissible and also the access point and campsite at the end. I don't know how to find out who the owner is. The mining claim maps also show mining claims covering the same location.

"If it doesn't have a buffet and a casino it aint seaworthy."--John Pinette


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PostPosted: September 17th, 2020, 1:15 pm 
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For US paddlers I linked to a Law Review article “What is Navigable Water?” above. More locally, just in Maryland, there is court precedent. That article got me the interested in Maryland case law. Two of the Home-State navigability citations I found:

Delmar Power & Light v. Eberhard (1967)
“There are public rights which can be classified as public easements, such as the right in the general public of navigation on the waters of a stream or lake, whether the bed is privately or publically owned, the similar right of hunting and fishing over navigable waters”

(And yes, if you wondered, there are privately owned river beds in the US, including still in force, oft court contested “King’s Grants” from Colonial times)

City of Baltimore v. Philadelphia Steamship Co.(1906)
“Although the State is said to be the owner of navigable waters within its boundaries, and holds them, not absolutely, but as a quasi trustee for the public benefit, and to support the rights of navigation and fishery to which the entire pubic are entitled therein, and, although the State can make a grant of privileges or interests in or over those waters, such grants are subject to the public rights of navigation and fishery.”

I have a laminated copy of those two citations, in full, including case numbers (247 MD. 273, 276-77, 230, A2d 644, etc) in my PFD pocket. I am not stopping to argue with ill-informed landowners along the way, I was already skedaddling downriver. But, if I am within my rights (and, uh, “search-ably” legal as a Beagle) I will have discussions with DNR or other enforcement agents.

There are similar US decisions regarding the right of portage around obstacles on navigable water. In the US the Public Trust Doctrine rules, but that doctrine varies from State to State, depending on the era in which they achieved Statehood.

Earlier States generally have more liberating interpretations of Public Trust Doctrine, based on British Laws, later States take a more Private Property view. I’ll see if I can find the US portage-rights citations.

Turns out, it wasn’t that hard to figure out how a Law Library works, even when researching citations for arcane navigation and right of portage decisions. I have no idea how Provincial laws and decisions are rendered, but it was fun and educational day in the dusty Law Library stacks


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PostPosted: September 21st, 2020, 8:37 am 
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I am following this along, and hoping to learn more about paddling on the river as well as access
. Hoping to paddle it sometime on the way back and forth to see family.

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PostPosted: September 22nd, 2020, 1:52 pm 
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I know from some paddling and talking to land owners on the French River some portages that cross private property are "protected" and in one property owners words "I can't do a thing to stop you." This is all anecdotal of course, I've never seen the deeds to these properties or read any legal documents pertaining to it.

Kevin Callan, Brad Jennings and some others seem to think it's pretty important to keep historic portage and canoe routes documented, navigable, and in use. I always just assumed this was primarily to establish and maintain right of way access in the event the properties status changes from Crown Land to something else.

I think Kevin talks about a portage on the Magnetawan River system somewhere that was on public or crown lands that were then sold to private interests. The portage was commonly used but not documented during the sale and subsequently took a bit of legal action to have it reinstated.


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PostPosted: September 23rd, 2020, 2:24 pm 
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At what point does the shoreline become private property?
The existing waterline? The high watermark?
If my feet are in the water and not on dry land?
Feet on dry land but below any high water mark?

Hoping that this doesn't push this thread too far off course.
Thanks.

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PostPosted: September 23rd, 2020, 7:56 pm 
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Lets just say portage rights, access to shore is a cats breakfast.
In southern Ontario it is even more so.
Portage rights are not discussed in the Canadian Navigable waters act, but other minor points are that are up for interpretation.
So there is no clear answer.
And the definitions are a lot clearer than they were under the previous con government.
But there is a cross over with a variety of provincial and federal laws which is what makes it the cats's breakfast.
Jeff

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PostPosted: September 24th, 2020, 12:40 pm 
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Ted wrote:
At what point does the shoreline become private property?
The existing waterline? The high watermark?
If my feet are in the water and not on dry land?
Feet on dry land but below any high water mark?

Hoping that this doesn't push this thread too far off course.
Thanks.


I think this mostly depends on the deed.

I know of one fisherman in the area who says he is constantly told he is on private property when he is in hip waders, but if he is in the same spot in his kayak he's left alone.

Most of these spots he's being warned away from have been privately held since before confederation. All these properties are on Lake Erie and Ontario.


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