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PostPosted: April 2nd, 2013, 11:29 am 
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Charlie Wilson wrote:
Comparing lamination techniques; Contact, Wet Bag, Infusion verse Pre-preg Autoclave


Thank you for taking the time to explain those lamination techniques in understandable detail. Cut and saved.


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PostPosted: April 2nd, 2013, 12:39 pm 
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Thanks Mike. I don't have any idea how many will appreciate that piece, but it puts real numbers on hand laminate comparison with wet and dry bagging. Our little paddlesports group spends way too much time on beliefs rather than facts.

None of that helps the OP. I am so damn short at 5'8.5" that I can sit on the edge of a rug and swing my legs. He is shorter yet. As a kneeling paddler I fit best in 28.5" wide boats, waterline width ~24-25, where my knees settle into the chines. When I end up in a wider boat I have to move a knee to cross heel the boat and feel like a seed in a gourd. I am also mindful that wider boats make it harder to paddle with a vertical paddleshaft.

There are not many boats to fit OP. The Colden FlashFire, DragonFly and Nomad, Hemlock Kestrel, SRT and Peregrine, the old Sawyer Starlight and the Swift Loon and Heron are the few, although Savage River has a couple dedicated sit down boats that narrow. Everyone else seems to be addressing the rest of the market, with Nova's SuperNova the widest of the lot at 32" max beam. [The 34" Hellman is in the realm of tandems.]

It's interesting the only designer who seems to have addressed the smaller amongst us is David Yost; that interest spurred by the petite Emily Brown, Dana Grover's SI in the early 80s? OK, Harold Deal has a skinny hull too.

Amongst those few the OP must test paddle them. Nomad and Peregrine are pretty similar solo trippers, the Vagabond based Kestrel, one of DY's smaller solo trippers may be a little small considering weight. I wouldn't want to be in any of the three in C3 water.

Of the other three, DF is narrow with a rounded bottom, maybe not what a retirement aged guy would prefer in terms of stability but it has symmetrical rocker. Flash is 18" shorter but wider at waterline with a more gentle ogive to the bottom; again 2.5" symmetrical rocker. SRT is the larger of the three but should also fit, but that skegged stern may not be desired in C3. In fact, I wouldn't want any of them in real C3 water. There are plenty of Bell, Placid and Colden Flash variants around that can be test paddled, DF and SRT will be harder to find.


Last edited by Charlie Wilson on April 2nd, 2013, 4:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: April 2nd, 2013, 12:51 pm 
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See Rob, where you fit.. the smaller paddler :D

The old saying come'a on to my house if you ever are this way. Have Heron, Peregrine, Nomad, DragonFly (and I am retired!) and Flash and Wild.

yah they are all DY designs. Charlie I copied and pasted too..handy to keep facts straight.


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PostPosted: April 2nd, 2013, 1:20 pm 
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Gee, Charlie, it's no wonder the interior and exterior of my pre-Scott Bluewater tandem looks so crappy, what with it being "wet bagged" epoxy, heat cured and all ! Why, that extra resin just glistens in the sun !

By the way, knowing that you have a very good answer, where does the styrene go in an infusion layup? Thinner resin, less styrene? In a hand layup, there would be shrinkage as the styrene leaves to the atmosphere. Is it sometimes favorable to have shrinkage to pull cloth layers closer together?


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PostPosted: April 2nd, 2013, 2:01 pm 
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I've always found the Bluewater hulls to be superbly finished in and out and nicely trimmed. Mating wet bagging with epoxy should yield plenty of "open time" to get the inner plies down smoothly and a good vacuum set and pulled. It's generally on a hot, humid afternoon with VE kicked a little to aggressively that the variation in wet bagging presents due to fast resin and slow hands.

Infusion needs resin that flows like maple syrup, so it is usually promoted for a specific temperature and gel/ catalyze time with increased styrene content. The styrene and peroxides get sucked out of the bagged boat and form an unsavory puck in the vacuum line's pressure bucket.


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PostPosted: April 2nd, 2013, 2:44 pm 
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I've been the owner of a couple of the canoes bandied about, and a fan of a few others, but I really don't think I'd want to paddle more than a couple in anything approaching Class III whitewater. The only two I think I'd paddle in real Class III are the Dragonfly and the SRT (though I agree with Charlie on the skegged stern). A deeper Flashfire or Wildfire might be a possibility, but they really don't exist. A deeper Flashfire with a bit more bow volume (Flare above the waterline) would be an awesome boat for whitewater. But I find it ships water way too fast in whitewater well below true Class IIIs in it's current configuration with only my 185 pounds in the boat.

PK


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PostPosted: April 2nd, 2013, 3:26 pm 
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Ha ha, although I'm not too tall, I've never thought of myself as a smaller paddler. The CIII thing is not a norm, but a once in a while. C II is pretty regular though. You know, reading through all of this has turned me right round. For me, a 40 pound canoe is light, unbelievably light. I'll see how I'm feeling in 6 years from now....maybe we'll all be using big boards with our gear strapped to it, paddling standing up!


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PostPosted: April 2nd, 2013, 5:41 pm 
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pknoerr wrote:
I've been the owner of a couple of the canoes bandied about, and a fan of a few others, but I really don't think I'd want to paddle more than a couple in anything approaching Class III whitewater. The only two I think I'd paddle in real Class III are the Dragonfly and the SRT (though I agree with Charlie on the skegged stern). A deeper Flashfire or Wildfire might be a possibility, but they really don't exist. A deeper Flashfire with a bit more bow volume (Flare above the waterline) would be an awesome boat for whitewater. But I find it ships water way too fast in whitewater well below true Class IIIs in it's current configuration with only my 185 pounds in the boat.

PK


Exactly.

Many of these boats may be larger than ideal for a somewhat short paddler with short arms, but the OP did talk about a boat that could handle up to 100 lbs in addition to his body weight (which will add another 200 adding clothing and gear) and run Class III rapids with "a minimum of wetness". Sorry but that calls for a large volume, deep boat.

If I were going to run a Class III with a 300 lb total load, I would rather be paddling a Blue Hole OCA tandem "Bill Mason style" attempting to side slip and back ferry it using frantic sculling draws and fast action prys and throwing cross strokes out the window, than I would attempting it in something like a Wildfire or Peregrine.


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PostPosted: April 2nd, 2013, 6:58 pm 
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Peregrine is a sticky wicket in moving water. I've done Class 3(with full tripping gear) in an older cousin of its, the Swift Heron. "Done" means I lived. Not much maneuverability but some. The last of the 13 wave train did me in.. I knew on wave 11 I was going for a bath.. Class 3 means you have to maneuver, so I am not sure this was not a class 2 with four foot wave trains.

Class 3 means moving up in boat volume and depth. I don't think I would do Class 3 with tripping gear even in my DragonFly. However I have not tried it...class 2 I have done quite nicely with gear.

Shame that there is not a downsized Royalite Swift Raven. That boat is for me a killer to portage. But a pleasure on downriver trips. We will be taking the DragonFly and Raven to Missouri and Arkansas for some spring ww runs at the end of the month. Pblanc can evaluate those boats if he would like. He's a better WW paddler than I am.

Its interesting that the grandfather of several of the boats mentioned is the Curtis Solo Tripper..(Nomad, Heron, Peregrine) and there is a picture of it sneaking Class3 with some gear on the Picture Gallery at http://www.hemlockcanoe.com/

Ferret around that website and you will find some SRT and DragonFly pictures.


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PostPosted: April 3rd, 2013, 12:13 am 
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CE Wilson: "Mating wet bagging with epoxy should yield plenty of "open time" to get the inner plies down smoothly and a good vacuum set and pulled." Yeah, that makes good sense.

With VE and infusion, how careful do you have to be about changing your cloth schedule? Right now, Scott/Bluewater is offering about four layups, from basic glass with reinforcement up to glass/Kevlar. Is there a way to predict, after basic trials, how a change in cloth and/or cloth coverage will affect the amount of resin?

Given that vacuum bagging involves some wasted resin anyway, if the builder decides to change the spheretex or replace some 6 oz S-glass with 5 oz Kevlar, etc, then one might just make sure there is enough resin before covering the layup to apply vacuum.

Kaz at Millbrook uses VE and vacuum bagging. One of my Millbrooks was made with a known mold after Kaz had plenty of experience with that mold, and the work is smooth inside and out. The other boat was perhaps the second he had tried out of the mold, he tried a denser spheretex, and he apologized for some dry spots in the layup he had to repair. The boat is fine as far as I'm concerned. Boats that are a little rough inside don't get stolen as often.

I wonder if those who have bought vacuum bagged boats, have noticed the regularly spaced little artifact flecks where cloth was covered with the pierced membrane? (Sorry, I don't keep the proper names for these things firmly in mind.)


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PostPosted: June 20th, 2013, 10:14 am 
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So, what's 2 1/2 months to boaters in springtime?

Perforated release film is called...... oh.

An advantage with wet bagging is that all plies are, hopefully, wet out by hand; the excess, again hopefully, squeezed back out.

With dry bagging/infusion, the builder approaches the nascent hull with a pre set amount of resin, hopefully that amount is written down it ease replication. Different lamination schedules can be expected to need different resin usages.

That said, it's pretty easy to figure how much you need for any given lamination. Start with an estimated amount and pour out some extra in a second container. Catalyze the first batch, open the resin line and watch. If you've too much resin the hull will be infused and one can weigh the amount left in the bucket after the resin line is closed. If you need more, close the resin line, catalyze the second batch, add it to the first bucket and re-open the line. The latter maneuver needs to happen with some alacrity, so resin, MEKP and stir stick should be readily to hand.

The problems with excess resin is that it gets sucked into the vacuum lines. We always use a paint pressure pot to make sure it doesn't reach the vacuum pump. spiral cut tube is cheap compared to an adequate vacuum pump.

So yeah, Bluewater probably has a chart for each hull with resin amounts for each laminate schedule, because, just like the three bears, just right is better than too much or too little.


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PostPosted: June 21st, 2013, 10:18 pm 
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I have the Swift Shearwater in carbon fiber - 29 pounds (plus the weight of the removable yoke). I simply love the thing.

It is a work of art and is every bit as robust as kevlar or fiberglass.

Sometimes when I getting into my car in the garage, I will just stop and look at my canoe hanging on the wall. It is THAT good looking.

My only complaint is that it has too much carrying capacity so my freeboard is a little to much and I feel that I am too far away from the water when I paddle.

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PostPosted: June 22nd, 2013, 8:33 am 
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I have the Swift Shearwater in carbon fiber - 29 pounds...


Yep, that's pretty light... something that light must have cost you. Can ultralite canoes get even lighter? Nanotech analysts and their predictions say maybe they can... a year or two earlier I was reading about a company in the states that was using carbon nanotubes, together with carbon fiber to produce some remarkably light vessels, about a third lighter than regular carbon fiber composites.

The system is callled Arovex, or Aerovex, something like that... somewhat vexing, I can't remember the name of the business. They say that adding carbon nanotubes to resin adds structural strength to the resin itself along with the strength of the carbon fiber cloth that the resin bonds to.

This will probably be horribly expensive for canoes, but they have built ocean-going vessels with lightweight design that can be dropped onto the water from helicopters, and other vessels with much lighter weight resulting in extra efficient fuel consumption for long surveillance patrols.

So if the Arovex system (?) becomes available and can be used by canoe manufacturers, the weight of a Shearwater could drop down to maybe as low as twenty pounds and still be reasonably durable. An added feature of carbon nanotubes embedded in resin is increased resistance to abrasion, which could mean that canoe hulls could better withstand scratching and gouging from rocks.

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PostPosted: June 24th, 2013, 5:07 pm 
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I'm glad this topic came up, even though it has been inactive for nearly three months, and I'm glad especially that Charlie and Kim have been participating, since you both know so much about it. I have a specific question on this topic: How tough are the Swift Canoe lay-ups?

Since attending the Maine Canoe Symposium two weeks ago, newly retired, and getting more varied paddling experience and expert teaching than ever before, I have been able to narrow my choices on the purchase of a truly all-purpose boat for my needs and wants, which include learning to pole a canoe, upstream and down, for recreational touring and for tripping; and learning to become competent, confident, and precise in paddling a tandem canoe solo in the traditional Canadian style for touring and tripping.

I'm thinking of the toughness required for poling, and the example of the Millbrook poling boats, reportedly with 6 layers of S-glass and 5 layers of Kevlar. I was even thinking of the Souhegan as maybe a good all-purpose boat till I first I saw them at the National Poling Championships a month ago: very blunt stems and kind of hard chines. Charlie, you've written so much about the rock-solid secondary stability of DY designs, and, Kim, you gave me first-hand experience in your wonderful class at MCS with the loan of your Nomad.

To make a long story short, it seems that the DY Swift Prospector 16 might be the best choice for me. The question is which layup? I'm guessing that the Guide Fusion, infused S-glass and Kevlar (with gel coat outer and inner), which they seem to suggest is their toughest lay-up, might be the best choice for me, considering my plan to do poling. [I've already bought my first pole from Rob Hayden.] I have an old Disco 169 to start practicing with, at my local pond. If, however, Swift's Kevlar Fusion happens to be tough enough for poling, I might want to go for that, considering it comes in 7 to 12 lbs lighter than does the Guide Fusion, depending on trim options.

Is the Swift Guide Fusion lay-up anywhere nearly as tough as the standard Millbrook lay-up? I wonder how many layers of S-glass and Kevlar the Guide Fusion lay-up has? If it does not seem in the same league as the Millbrook standard whitewater competition lay-up, would it at least seem tough enough for poling in the bony rivers and streams of New England, by a careful but novice poler? Then, if the Guide Fusion were tough enough, might the Kevlar Fusion also be tough enough?

Hope this slight twist on the topic isn't considered a "hijack" of the thread. Would much appreciate any input from those I named or any others. thanks!

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PostPosted: June 24th, 2013, 6:00 pm 
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I don't think its a hijack at all. But I know little about the construction of Millbrook canoes, except that they are well regarded. Kaz does not use foam cores. Foam cores are for stiffness without weight, but my concern is that while poling you might not stop in time snubbing and a bang dead on could fracture the foam core. Cracked foam cores are mighty hard to fix.

I hope Charlie will be along shortly. As he is most closely in on Swift construction he is the better advisor.

I had a great time at the all day workshop with you! And mighty glad the monsoon happened overnight!


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