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 Post subject: Re: Blowhard nimbyism...
PostPosted: February 20th, 2009, 9:49 am 
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Erhard wrote:
wotrock wrote:
But you are avoiding the point I am making: by throwing the NIMBY accusation into the hat, the industry is trying to avoid some major costs of their projects. A reimbursing scheme is present for road construction, but nothing is in place for wind turbine activity.

That extra cost should be paid and levied onto the price of the energy produced to reflect its true cost and avoid another free ride at the public's expense.


I actually agree with you on that point. What I disagrred with was your other point: that NIMBYs get bullied off the stage. My point was that it cuts both ways.

NIMBYs then ruin any credibility they might have had with statemnets such as this, from the link I posted : "Tiny's mayor noted, and 50 to 55 cement-truckloads of cement will be poured per turbine, which will reduce the ability of the area to filter water"

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 Post subject: Re: Blowhard nimbyism...
PostPosted: February 20th, 2009, 11:50 am 
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Wotrock,

Quote:
Here's an excerpt from a letter to the ed " To all the people worrying about the bugs, plants and animals that would be disturbed by the construction of wind turbines, why didn’t you worry about these things when you were building your little castles? You may not be saying ‘not in my backyard,’ but you are saying ‘now that I have ruined my little section of the Georgian Bay shoreline, I don’t want anyone else to do so!’ Why would a beautiful white windmill be any more of an eyesore on the shores of Georgian Bay than another building...."


This argument, that once an area has been partially developed and had natural characteristics degraded, it becomes alright to degrade it with even more development - can be the slippery slope taken further... a road built in a wilderness area before it was formally recognized as wilderness, could justify more roadbuilding since there's already one there.

The Scarborough Bluffs are not wilderness, but they are a remnant natural area in the sea of urbanizing development that's Toronto. The Bluffs have been recognized as a Toronto landmark since the first settlers arrived - Elizabeth Simcoe wrote of their "extremely bold" character and "they appeared so well that we talked of building a summer residence" in the 1790s.

IMO, the issue of developing this area further with offshore windmills, goes beyond nimbyism... it affects all Toronto residents that want to be able to visit a portion of the waterfront that still remains somwhat natural, in spite of the development that's been done nearby.

Toronto Bay and the Toronto Islands have been polluted, dredged, filled in, altered, modified, landscaped and urbanized so much that little of their natural character remains. The Etobicoke shorelines have been surveyed, subdivided, and sold off by real estate agents, so that there's very little access remaining. Ashbridge's Bay, a wetlands area of about 600 acres at the outflow of the Don River was totally buried by filling and the new land area zoned industrial - if there's any place where these marginally-productive windmills should be, it's there.

The Scarborough Bluffs still remain as one of the few significant natural landmarks in Toronto and adding industrial wind power machinery offshore does result in more loss. The main loss would not be to wildlife, but to Toronto residents who recognize the values here, who lose out on the natural beauty of this area, along with the potential to enjoy it whenever they want.

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 Post subject: Re: Blowhard nimbyism...
PostPosted: February 20th, 2009, 2:46 pm 
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in a perfect world wouldn't there be a value assigned in the "scoping " to reflect the distance one would have to travel from the core to repicate this experience elsewhere?

diference in distance* total yearly visits* total consumption of fuel over that difference..........

just wondering how to place a value in terms of Green costs and community costs.......

personally, I don't think they are all that terrible, over time structures become part of the experience:
http://www.bamjam.net/Spain/Mancha.html

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 Post subject: Re: Blowhard nimbyism...
PostPosted: February 20th, 2009, 4:00 pm 
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I've often been fairly close to the 5 windmills by the Bruce Nuclear Info Centre & never heard much more than a gentle whoosh whoosh whoosh that is easily drowned out by the noise of the occasional passing car.
I had a year away from Kincardine/Tiverton area & it seems that hundreds of windmills sprang up in my absence. I visited friends that recently bought a farm there on a quiet concession road across from a windmill. The woman is young & has good hearing but was unaware that they made any noise until I mentioned it. So I'm sorry, but I can't take the noise complaints seriously.
I don't mind a view of the occasional windmill but don't enjoy them in large numbers, though they are much less of an eyesore than transmission corridors. The really bothersome aspect didn't show until after dark. Most of the windmills have a blinking red light on top & we could see a few dozen throbbing away. I revel in the clear skies & lack of light pollution at my new home & would never consider buying a house in windmill country.


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 Post subject: Re: Blowhard nimbyism...
PostPosted: February 20th, 2009, 4:27 pm 
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Erhard wrote:
wotrock wrote:
That extra cost should be paid and levied onto the price of the energy produced to reflect its true cost and avoid another free ride at the public's expense.


Why does it matter whether you pay for it via higher electric rates, or taxes?

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 Post subject: Re: Blowhard nimbyism...
PostPosted: February 20th, 2009, 4:31 pm 
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GWA wrote:
Erhard wrote:
wotrock wrote:
That extra cost should be paid and levied onto the price of the energy produced to reflect its true cost and avoid another free ride at the public's expense.


Why does it matter whether you pay for it via higher electric rates, or taxes?

At least with user pay the user has some control over his costs. Stuff like turning the heat down at night, using a clothes line, whatever.

When the money has to pass through the govt. there's nothing left at the other end. (just like oats through a horse)


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 Post subject: Re: Blowhard nimbyism...
PostPosted: February 20th, 2009, 4:51 pm 
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I think this will soon be a moot argument as technology will save the day. Check out the link below.

invisible

Sound dampening technology can take care of the noise.

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 Post subject: Re: Blowhard nimbyism...
PostPosted: February 20th, 2009, 5:12 pm 
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Quote:
I revel in the clear skies & lack of light pollution at my new home


I'm sure you do just as I'm sure that NOBODY who lives near Scarborough Bluffs can say the same thing with or without a bunch of windmills.

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 Post subject: Re: Blowhard nimbyism...
PostPosted: February 20th, 2009, 6:53 pm 
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recped wrote:
Quote:
I revel in the clear skies & lack of light pollution at my new home


I'm sure you do just as I'm sure that NOBODY who lives near Scarborough Bluffs can say the same thing with or without a bunch of windmills.

You're right. I just had a look at a satellite view of the Bluffs on Google Maps. So I'll have to register as a NIYBY (Not In Your Back Yard) because I believe that city lakeshores should be preserved as parkland or natural land as much as possible. :-?
I don't mind windmills in Bruce County because they are on farmland & set well back from the lake (& because I don't live there any more). But I wouldn't want to see windmills close to a lakeshore or clearly visible offshore or on Niagara Escarpment, whether I live there or not.
My friends in my previous post said that the previous owner of their farm cancelled a deal to allow a windmill because he thought it would affect sale of the farm. They aren't too impressed by the appearance or practicality of windmills, but said they would probably allow one if asked, because of the $$$ they would receive in rent.


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 Post subject: Re: Blowhard nimbyism...
PostPosted: February 20th, 2009, 8:35 pm 
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one of those Romulan cloaking devices used on Star Trek would do the trick and nobody would see the wind turbines.

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 Post subject: Re: Blowhard nimbyism...
PostPosted: February 20th, 2009, 9:14 pm 
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ice-breaker wrote:
one of those Romulan cloaking devices used on Star Trek would do the trick and nobody would see the wind turbines.


Neither would the birds. :o

Besides, we'd probably need an 800 MW CANDU reactor to power the cloaking device for each 1.8 MW windmill. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Blowhard nimbyism...
PostPosted: February 22nd, 2009, 1:57 am 
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Back to the original point on page one of this thread. It's one more example of the elitist arrogance of Canuckistan's "natural governing party" and their propagandists at the Star. They don't give a rat's ass about democracy, and they will ram whatever they like down anyone's throat to the cheers of their friends.

I won't waste any keystrokes commenting on visual pollution, noise, or any of the other disadvantages of wind turbines. It's all been said before.

As for NIMBYism, those who truly care are those who are affected. It really does matter what goes in your backyard, and it really does give you more of a right to an opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Blowhard nimbyism...
PostPosted: February 22nd, 2009, 7:50 am 
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Erhard wrote:
I know that there are quite a few planned for Wolfe and Amherst Island (on land), and then a large group in the lake off Prince Edward Island. I don't think they are that far yet, still in construction.

http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF ... 3&t=h&z=10

To make up a 100 or so, there'd have to be more on the US side of that border area, and that's possible as I have no info on that area.



There are several up on Wolfe Island now...and guess what, they DIDN'T make the island look terrible like they feared...WAY better than chimneys spewing smoke that I remember from Toronto and Pickering...

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 Post subject: Re: Blowhard nimbyism...
PostPosted: February 22nd, 2009, 11:49 am 
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Quote:
As for NIMBYism, those who truly care are those who are affected. It really does matter what goes in your backyard, and it really does give you more of a right to an opinion.


Some photos showing the Scarborough Bluffs on a calm day, or when there's a north wind, when canoeing can get you to some nice beach areas... some are relatively isolated and quiet for a place like Toronto. There is nothing to disturb the view offshore and often the only sound is the lapping of waves.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_R5sHX3O4VjQ/S ... G_1098.JPG

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_R5sHX3O4VjQ/S ... G_1160.JPG

Plaque describing the unique geology of the bluffs, one of the most valuable records of glaciation on earth:

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Blowhard nimbyism...
PostPosted: February 22nd, 2009, 12:17 pm 
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I have to chuckle a bit if the geologic information stored in a cliff is used to argue against putting windmills in the lake. (Nick Eyles at U. Toronto was a part of much of that Scarborough Cliffs work, and has a book titled Toronto Rocks. He's also a co-author of a great book titled Canada Rocks. The Bluffs are featured in this text.)

People have been trying to put in the largest tire incinerator in the world in downtown Erie. The incinerator would generate electricity, and is being promoted as alternative energy.


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