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PostPosted: October 23rd, 2002, 1:44 pm 
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Hello Tripper Ted. Sure, there's room for both of us, you in your tent and me with mine. I might even invite you inside in the evening and pour something fortifying into your tea.

As for getting wet hollowing out a snow cave/quinzee, well, I guess I lack your technique. I've made half a dozen and always got wet, from the inside or out.

Regarding pee bottles, yes, you want to take care. A friend of mine, when age 14 and out camping, had an arguement about something with his Dad (and lost), so to get even punctured several small holes in his Dad's pee bottle. He was awakened at 3 in the morning by a very angry shout. Seems his Dad never quite emerged from his bag for this function -- just kind of rose on his knees....

As for wet feet and liners, well, that's why I'm a convert to the hot tent. Perfectly dry clothes every morning, perfectly dry bedding every night. The thing is, you need the LIGHTEST tent you can manage, the LIGHTEST wood stove you can rely on, and the EASIEST-PULLING sled you can invent. Holy Grails.

I used to take a dog too, a Samoyed/Husky cross. She was a wonderful companion and pulled like a trooper -- she'd pull the whole load on a hard-packed lake crossing. I generally led with a line to a ring on the breastplate of her harness. That way I could help her out in the tough spots. She never shirked.

You can't die in ordinary sleep from hypothermia. Don't worry about it. You go through a major shivering phase long before that.

Vilhamur Stefanson (sp?), the great northern explorer/traveller, use to nap on the open ground when travelling alone in the Arctic. He said death by hypothermia would only come when you were exhausted. As he walked, when he first felt like having a nap, he just lay down and slept. This way he never got too tired. He said the cold always woke him up after a short sleep and off he'd go. (I was a bit startled by this, but who am I to differ? He was the expert and stayed alive to prove it, unlike, unfortunately, some of his companions whom he left behind.)


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PostPosted: October 23rd, 2002, 3:16 pm 
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Joined: September 4th, 2002, 7:00 pm
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Location: Markham, Ontario Canada
That's reassuring about sleep and hypothermia.

good news: thanks all for de-mything something for me,

bad news: increased probability of me being inflicted upon some unsuspecting winter campers. LOL


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PostPosted: October 23rd, 2002, 5:02 pm 
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Slow down a litle David H., your starting to convert me to toasty toes and toasty tents.
I can't have that - I have a chest-thumping image to keep up. May I join you under an assumed name? (Just between us, right?)

Ted


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PostPosted: October 23rd, 2002, 10:18 pm 
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All this talk about hot-tent's is really beggin' someone to ask, just how many canoeist's ( I assume we'll talk shop when out there?) will fit into a hot-tent?

4,5....more?

It's almost sounding like we'll be heading off into the winterness and setting up portable-cottages!?

:grin:

Georgi

Anyone have any Arctic Dunny ( hot-seat) plans ?



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Georgi on 2002-10-23 23:38 ]</font>


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PostPosted: October 23rd, 2002, 10:53 pm 
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Location: Barrie, Ontario Canada
Numbers? It depends, of course, on the type and size of the tent.

Check out that Tentsmiths site. Most of those can be modified for small stoves.

I slept in Boris' Explorer tent last year; a nice rig, with 4 others. It's about 10x10, I believe. Not much ridgepole space, but enough.

An 8x10 Wall tent starts to get tight at 3 with winter gear. For 2 it's palatial. Sounds poor, I know, but you usually leave the front 4 ft or so for the stove and kitchen area, and the back for sleeping/living. With gear and whatnot there isn't quite room enough to sleep front to back. You end up oriented side to side and 3 is about it. Usually the next size up is 10x12, but that's about twice as much tent. I'm toying with having another made at 8x12. This would sleep 4 without difficulty oriented lengthwise.

The weight of the camp gear divided by 4 isn't really so much. It's do-able, anyway.


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PostPosted: October 24th, 2002, 3:35 am 
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Location: Pefferlaw, Ontario & Melissa Ontario, Canada
My camper trailer has 3 berths. It sleeps either 3 guys, or 1 guy and 5 chicks. :lol:


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PostPosted: October 24th, 2002, 7:20 am 
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Allrighty then!

I expect to sleep either under the stars or in my tent.

I would like, hoping that we all get there, to be able to assist in the tent raising party or at least in quinzee building. I'm not sure I'll be prepared to sleep in it, but would love to see and experience some first hand work.

Georgi


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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Georgi on 2002-10-24 08:21 ]</font>


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PostPosted: October 24th, 2002, 6:12 pm 
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You're on Georgie . You and I will build a quinzee . But as Dave mentioned we will get wet . However with a hot tent at our disposal we should be able to dry our clothes . Besides we will have lots of spare clothes . Going light in Feb. is not an obtion . Scouter Joe


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PostPosted: October 25th, 2002, 3:26 pm 
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I'm getting more excited as the days draw nearer to winter!

Sounds great Scouter Joe!

Smokey!?, were you scouting the location still? I'd also like to catch some sort of an edible fish...

I also hear through the network, the weather network!, that temps are falling and snow is either there or coming!

I think I have to move up North, we're still just coming around to just the leaves turning colours.

Georgi


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PostPosted: October 25th, 2002, 5:15 pm 
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Alright then, I'll build the quinzee and no, neither I nor anyone helping me will get wet!
I'm taking this as a challenge. If I get wet, I'll bring and buy a round for all.
(And since, my gear is designed for sleeping in the snow, I might was well sleep in it too.) I still want to check out the hot-tenting though. Old dogs occasionally learn new tricks - especially if they make life comfortable.

Four quick tricks for not getting wet.
1- kneel on a bum-pad don't lay in the snow.
2- carve a top-to-bottom spot just after the entrance so that you can kneel, then carve outwards and back so that you can carve kneeling rather than laying.
3) use a military style entrenching tool with the shovel locked 90 degrees to the handle. Use it to carve from top to bottom - don't dig. You won't get snow on you.
4. Don't overdress - After building that kneeling pocket at the front, I remove my jacket down to undershirt and use longish gauntlets rather than gloves. And if I'm carving I don't get snow on me. I push snow near the entrance and my safety buddy outside the front door pulls excess snow out of the entrance with a small homemade roof-rake like the kind you buy a CTC to take snow off of your roof.

Notice the word carve rather than dig. Wait enough time for the snow to sinter properly, so that easily carves.

Ah, it's easier to show than tell. I build one in my backyard every winter as it's warmer than the proverbial doghouse that I'm always in. Anyone near Ottawa, drop me a line and you can help one. I don't mind the help as with two, you can carve from both ends towards the middle, then plug one entrance when finished. Half the time spent carving - half-hour or so for a two adult unit.
and P.S. it's so dark in a quinzee I recommend a one of those little greenish glow sticks stuck in the roof it gives just enough light to see without being bothersome.
cheers, Ted


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PostPosted: October 25th, 2002, 6:49 pm 
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TripperTed, If your bringing the drink anyway,

There's no reason why we shouldn't be able to help you make sure your not packing it back out! :wink:

:hint: I'll be the one with the empty glass... and maybe some mix for coffee.

Georgi


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PostPosted: October 25th, 2002, 7:10 pm 
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Hi Georgi, yeh still mostly on the road with mtgs but gathering information on possibles for sure. Eas up to Timmins this week and from the watershed north there was 4-6" snow and unless it warms considerably it might just stay! A trick for building a quinzee that i've read, was to wear a rain coat, as long as you're not to strenuous and sweat you stay dry from the fall out. Off with Scouter Joe in the am to cut portage, shine up those lures!
Sid


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PostPosted: October 27th, 2002, 2:39 am 
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Quinzee's are fun, and you can make them with snow that's unsuitable for blocks for igloos. But they do sag quickly. Another tip for building one is to use a throw-away plastic drop sheet to cover the snow pile when you have it the size you want the interior to be, then continue covering it to the required thickness. When you dig it out, snow will fall away from the plastic and you'll have the right size and wall thickness.

A more purist way of doing this is to pile up all the snow, then poke sticks through to the desired wall thickness. Then dig out the inside to the ends of the sticks.

If you must have an igloo, and the snow is unsuitable, pile up a whole bunch of it and stamp it down with your feet or something. After it sets up, it can be cut into blocks with things like hand wood saws.

I found this discussion interesting because for 10 years we went on week-long mountaineering camps at Christmas. We slept in backpacker-style tents and used plastic sleds and crazy carpets to take along a foldup wood stove and a 18' diameter custom-made tent. This tent is larger than, and one third the weight of the two 9x12 canvas tents it replaced. Great fun!

You can even drag your excess gear in a stuff sack or dry bag, as long as the trail is hospitable.

I've been on a couple of 3-week glacier traverses on skis, plus three week-long winter backcountry ski camping trips during which the temperature hovered between -30 C and -40 C. We camped out, and usually had open fires in the evenings. One unexpected problem at those temperatures is that all your food freezes rock-hard. Like your boots. Preventing frostbite depends on careful management of activity and clothing. No clothing will keep you warm if you're inactive at -35. Alternatively, your body produces up to 16 times as much heat during strenuous activity.

So if you manage your clothing to avoid either having too little on, or sweating too much and getting wet, you'll be fine. This applies to your feet and hands also. Usually cold extremities are because you either aren't wearing enough (like a hat), or aren't active enough.

The main problem is that the colder it is, the narrower your margin of safety. Like if you fall into water, are alone, with no heat source, at -30, you are in trouble. Even without trouble, if it gets colder than -40, just go home.

If you have a heated tent to dry out your clothing, cook, socialize etc, during the evening, there's not much to worry about.

At night, have a sleeping bag rated for the temperature, and a decent pad. Try not to breathe inside the bag. Wear all but your outer clothing inside the bag. Compared to undressing, you'll be warmer, avoid getting dressed in the cold morning, and keep your bag from absorbing rancid body oil. Wear a warm hat at night. (On some trips, we'd wear a hat continuously for a week or more. Totally gross, but it was more important to stay warm!) Put your parka over your bag, or even wear it if you have to. If you have no place better for them, try to tolerate your boots in the bottom of your bag and wear your mitts inside your bag until they're dry. If you have to, put your legs and sleeping bag inside your backpack. Try to ignore the shower of frost off your tent into your face in the morning. If your bag gets damp, it can be dried in the sun at any temperature.

"Mountaineering, Freedom of the Hills" available at your library has excellent content about cold weather backpack-style travel and camping.

"The person who chops their own wood is warmed twice."

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PostPosted: October 27th, 2002, 10:21 am 
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I think all we need now is the Forum to yap in and work out the details, Richard...

Any more posts to this thread and we'll be bumping off the bears in the top 10!

Georgi

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[color=green]For love of the wilderness, A journey begins...[/color] [color=brown][b][Nature's Calling...] So get OFF(!) THAT(!!) THUNDERBOX !!![/b][/color]




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PostPosted: October 27th, 2002, 11:36 am 
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Mr. Grant,
Your trick with the plastic sheet sounds vvvery interesting indeed. Something to try out this winter. I normally don't use sticks for gauges. I just have the saftey person block the entrance of the quenzhee reguarly, then carve until the wall area your working on turns translucent which is about 18-24 inches depending on sunlight.

Secondly I have always wanted to try an igloo. I now have have another idea.
Many thanks.


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