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PostPosted: June 8th, 2009, 3:46 pm 
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Thanks BK and native brookie for the sage advice. Stay tuned for more trout fishing conundrums!
Battenkiller wrote:
Strath, the Kinni sounds (and looks) awesome, even if it is somewhat in decline. Dozens of wild fish rising everywhere that you can't catch no matter what you do? Sounds just like the Battenkill in its prime. How is it that some folks can't understand the beauty in that? 8)

I think Ed overstated the deterioration of the Kinni. It remains a fine, fine fishery. But it is also a model of restoration that you may find interesting. The Kinni was savaged by poor land management in the 1930's and 1940's. The local Rod and Gun club took interest and began to work with farmers to adopt river friendly land practices. It was only in the 1960's when river was officially un-degraded and classified as a class I trout stream. River management has continued and the fishery has sustained trout populations for a couple decades without stocking. Its a continuous process, and I certainly benefit from several generations of conservationists that fought the good fight. So its not as if the Kinni was pristine and suddenly has been "compromised" -- its been a work in progress since the great depression.

The growth of the Twin Cities is a new threat to the Kinni. As Ed indicated, the upper Kinni watershed is threatened by development, and around River Falls the growth of the town has prompted farmers to sell land and subdivide their acreage, further creating water run-off problems. The good news is that nobody is building houses right now, and the river has many advocates - especially the Land Trust.

There is hope and change, right? :wink:

It does seem apparent to me that NY and Vermont need to get on the same page with management of the Battenkill. Sounds like the management standards are different depending which bank you are on. Sometimes you take two steps backword and three steps forward, but you are still making progress.

So the Kinni is not in decline - yet. Management and improvements have been going on a generation before I was born. And not to rub salt in the wound, but the pics and fish I've been blogging about are on the "lower Kinni" south of the town of River Falls. There are only 3000 fish per mile in the eight mile stretch from River Falls to the St. Croix. The "upper Kinni" well, it has more than twice as many fish. Boggles the mind.

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Last edited by Strathcona on June 8th, 2009, 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: June 8th, 2009, 4:07 pm 
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Strathcona wrote:
The lower five miles of the kinni have only two access points. Kinnikinnic State Park at the confluence with the St. Croix river, or the city park in River Falls. Every thing in-between is private land with no road access and apparently the various land owners are sympathetic to the Kinni River Trusts mission. We shall see.

You're not fishing the Lower Kinni ... are you? You need to go higher up. There's plenty of access points, as I remember (but things may have changed). There's a place with an old wooden bridge ... upstream from there is fantastic. Because it's spring fed, there's a lot of mud up to your knees (in river and on banks), but you can get around it. There was one hole (which I won't be able to describe) where I've been able to stay there for hours during a hatch. You got to walk out there in the weeds and the mud and find your spot, sink in to your knees, and just watch and pick out your fish. Then again, I saw this area decimated by fishing pressure and I'm sure it's probably something akin to a shallow sand flat now, and is probably a candidate for rehab. Go out there when it's cloudy, and by all means try your darnest to locate the head of the hex hatch, or find a spot you know like the back of your hand, and fish the hex hatch at night. It's a sight to behold. I've come back with car windows blacked out by bug guts on such nights.


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PostPosted: June 8th, 2009, 7:17 pm 
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idylwyld wrote:
You're not fishing the Lower Kinni ... are you? You need to go higher up.
I don't have any waders, and I can fish the lower Kinni in hip-boots :wink: Hmmm....Father's day is coming up *idea* .

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PostPosted: June 9th, 2009, 10:56 pm 
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Ok, the wife is out of town, my daughter is with my in-laws -- its been this way since Saturday. I took my dog into work because I thought a full day in the kennel was too much for 2 days in a row. A client kept me late, I didn't get home until 6:30. But then again, the sun doesn't set until after 9:00. I nuked some microwave buffalo wings (I've had this for three days in a row), wolfed 'em down, put my dog in her box (guilt free), and heck -- back to the Kinni.

I hit the water at 7:30 -- I stopped at the bank to string up my fly-rod and began to count the active rising fish. At least a dozen. Per native brookie's suggestion, I rigged up a Royal Wolf as an attractor pattern/strike indicator and tied a 12" 5X tippet with a small hare's ear nymph as the constellation prize.

First cast, trout on the Royal Wolf:

Image

In the words of Darth Vader....all too easy...

I then moved to the same hole that perplexed me the other day. Lots of active fish...but the rise patterns were mixed. Some were jumping out of the water, some were doing the porpise - aka smutting rise? - and frankly I should have printed out BK's post because I was getting a little confused. Any how, I did a first cast down and across rather mindlessly (downstream of the confluence in the fast water), and hooked another brown trout. This one took the nymph. So far its 50/50. A few minutes later, a third trout on the Royal Wolf. Hmmm....then, everything stopped. You could feel it in the air. The fish went cold.

The fish in the pocket by the inlet stream were still active:

Image

This is a crappy picture of the spot that hold the trout I cannot catch. In the center is the inlet stream, the main body of water is to the right. There are usually a few trout in the calm water inside the eddy line.

I spent the next 1/2 hour trying a basic wet-fly, a pheasant tail with a small bead head to get low, a small white dry fly, and in desperation a super-sized neon orange Stimulator (which I think sent the fish into therapy).

I'm seeing two things in this spot: a "splashy rise" which is why I tried the bead head, and a "porpoising action" which is why I tried the wet fly. It seems the trout in the riffles can't see the presentation as well so they bang it, whereas these fish in the quiet water can inspect a fly and pass it over.

Dusk coming...I was hiking out and all of a sudden the river came alive again. I chucked the Stimulator over the bank almost in jest and "pow" another brown trout.

Stupid question: BK, when you say "spinners" are you talking about dead flies that fall to the water after mating? Mayfly spinners are large, I don't see anything large, but lots of swarms of small white flies.

My wife is home tomorrow, and I have to pack for my Bloodvein trip. Doubt I'll be able to wet a fly until Sunday :( .

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PostPosted: June 10th, 2009, 10:42 am 
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Strathcona wrote:
I'm seeing two things in this spot: a "splashy rise" which is why I tried the bead head, and a "porpoising action" which is why I tried the wet fly.

Stupid question: BK, when you say "spinners" are you talking about dead flies that fall to the water after mating? Mayfly spinners are large, I don't see anything large, but lots of swarms of small white flies.


I am guilty of over simplifying all of this. My recommendations are just a starting point. By the end of a long day on the stream, my fly patch is usually the thing that takes the longest to put away, sometimes containing over two dozen failed flies which must be put back into half a dozen different fly boxes. Three or four good drifts during an active hatch and no takes, I give up on a pattern.

You have to learn to change flies in less than a minute to do this or you will drive yourself nuts. Best place to do this is around the morning campfire or watching Rockford Files re-runs. Take your time with each knot and stop at each stage to examine your hands. Look for novel ways to blend the steps together and get it down cold so you don't freak on the stream when the pool lights up with dimples and you have a size 6 bugger on your tippet. Practice your leader knots as well, as adding just an extra foot of tippet, maybe replacing 3' of 4X with 4' of 5X, can make your trip a successful one rather than getting skunked. This is especially true of those long, glassy glides commonly found on spring fed flows.

Those seams (eddy lines) are the best lies in the river, and if there are big fish there they will push the little guys out and occupy those spots. They offer the fish a great holding spot just out of the main flow with ample opportunity to drift out into the current and lazily suck in a fly from the top. Efficient for the trout, special presentation for the angler.

You really need to pull out all your tricks to fool these bank feeders, but you will be rewarded for your efforts. The conflicting currents found in such lies make long casts with short leaders unproductive. You need to sneak closer. If the fish is rising steadily, take a step every time the fish rises, then be still and wait for the next rise. When you are close enough, make a cast that allows the leader to fall in such a way that it doesn't drag the fly. Even the slightest pause in the drift is a death sentence in these situations.

It's up to you to learn how to do this as every lie is slightly different, but you can start by learning to execute a simple reach cast and a sidearm hook. Get the leader upstream of the lie so that the fly drifts about 2' above the rise form location. This allows the fly to get the fish's attention without dropping it directly on his head.

Too far up and the fish may not notice it (and it will probably drag by the time it gets to the lie anyway), too close and you either spook the fish or drop it into an area that the fish isn't actively scouting. The fish make up their mind way before you actually see the rise and usually time their ascent to coincide with the fly in order to intercept it most efficiently. Efficient feeding = large trout.

As far as mayfly spinners go, they come in as many sizes as mayflies come in, right down to size 26 TBOs (although the fish are usually on the emerging olives in this case). The Trico "hatch", one of my very favorites to fish, are actually spinners (Tricos do their final molt in mid-air), so you are looking at water blanketed with size 20-22 mayfly spinners. My favorite mid-season dusk pattern in a size 18 thread bodied olive parachute, made highly visible with a tall but sparse white post.

Small white flies? How small? Maybe a microcaddis emergence (they appear white from a distance)? Are you sure they were spinner (sipping) rises, or were they lazily taking small trapped sulfurs in the film? There is a big difference here, both in pattern and in presentation (spinner fall casts need to be timed with the rhythmic rises for one thing). Time on the water will teach you these things.


Strath, I really need you to catch those uncatchable trout for me. My home river sucks right now, and I won't be making any trips to the Kinni any time soon (although I deeply wish I could), so I need to do my fishing vicariously through you. Figure it out for me, would ya? :wink:


I was trying to locate some stream reports from your area to see if their was any mention of these white flies and I found this site. Thought you might be interested in it if you don't already know about it:

Grey Goat Fly Fishing River Reports

I especially liked a little story about fishing instructors. A small excerpt:

Quote:
In another School on the Wolf River, he ["Zen Master Bill"] had my students wade over and he swept them into his wide embrace.

“I need to ask, but do not want an immediate answer to this question. Just think about this: When is Fishing not Fishing and more importantly, when is not Fishing, Fishing?”

Bill waded upstream to a Buick-sized boulder, leaned against it in full Cowboy mode and rolled a smoke. My student anglers looked at each other like startled owls. One shrugged, and then waded off to resume working the same water he had flailed for the last hour. His sister, a college sophomore wise beyond her tender years but in possession of a cast that would not extend beyond her own shadow at High Noon just stared downstream the entire time it took the Zen Master to finish his smoke.

” A blip!” she announced, “Look, there’s another blip!”

In the shade of a tag alder she had observed a miniscule rise that belied the size of the snout that caused the “blip”. However she misnamed it, she was the one who spotted the trout and she noticed it not by casting, not by wading, but by just observing. She was Fishing.

From the Zen Master came a decidedly un-P.C. salutation, “Well now, Missy. You spotted it, aren’t you going to wade your pink self over and catch it?”

“Um, yeah. But not with this fly, the rise form is all wrong.”

She clipped off her Caddis then smartly clinch-knotted on a parachute Sulfur. Gaining confidence with each step, her cautious wading brought her close and she now had the timing of the rises dialed in. A nine-foot rod, a ten-foot leader and a firm stop of the rod in both directions delivered the fly like a butterfly landing on sore feet. A blip then a take!

The flailing brother waded over to help net her prize Brown then mumbled, “I coulda caught that fish from where I was standing. I coulda air mailed my fly right under the alder. Flip cast like a girl, Jeesh.”

“Horse shit!” came from Zen Master Bill, echoing down the river. “You were wearing out a fly line over fish-less water. I’m here to tell you that you were most certainly not Fishing. Because she was studying the water, Little Missy over here not only spotted the riser but she correctly noticed that it wasn’t a caddis rise. She was Fishing, damn it.

He continued, “You never noticed that fish because you were busy turning this river into Cappuccino. Stop casting. Observe. Be aware of what’s in front of you. The trout will tell you what they are eating if you notice the rise form. Watch, then put something that looks like it on their dinner plate.”

I learned a lot about teaching from Bill, not the least of which was his simplistic approach to presenting the fly: Feed the fish. I’m still learning Bill’s Zen approach and I successfully pull it off on occasion.


"The trout will tell you what they are eating if you notice the rise form."

Like I was saying... :wink:

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PostPosted: June 10th, 2009, 10:57 am 
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One of my mentors used to watch me on the river changing flies frantically. While I would try 6 flies, maybe 25 casts, for one refusal, he'd have taken 3 casts, and caught 2 trout.

His mantra was PRESENTATION, PRESENTATION, PRESENTATION. If a fish refused his fly, he wouldn't change flies. Instead, he'd try a somewhat different cast, or take a step upstream or downstream to get a slightly different drift, or lengthen his leader.

It worked, and I try to remember his advice--but I still carry way too many flies, too.


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PostPosted: June 10th, 2009, 3:24 pm 
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Guys, this is great. Thanks. I think I'll get another shot at these devils Saturday morning. I'm going to add some 6X tippet and pester the local fly shop for some patterns. Doftya, are you getting out fishing?

In meantime, lets play a little game. Its a version of "Where's Waldo" only you have to find the brook trout! This is a speed game. Check your watch and go...

Image

and...

Image

Ok....how long did it take?

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PostPosted: June 10th, 2009, 10:12 pm 
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Not getting out near as much as I'd like to, family seems to get in the way. Kids in soccer, some overtime at work, keeping up with spring cleaning and repairs, it never seems to end. There are a couple of more places I'd like to try around here, some more streams/rivers to explore. As well I still need to get up to my Dad's cottage and try some lake fishing for panfish and bass. All in good time. For now I'm still slowly working on tying up a reasonable stock of flies. Unfortunately that is going slow as well. Hey Strath, what size were those ant flies you were using? Should I tie some even smaller?

By the way, did anyone have any favorite design for a fly tying station? I'm even thinking of something portable, so that I can pack it up and take it up north to my Dad's cabin, or possibly even something to bring streamside (but that may mean that it is too small). I've got some ideas for what I'd like to make, but I'm looking for more ideas and designs that have proven effective and efficient (or ergonomic).

Dave

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PostPosted: June 11th, 2009, 8:45 am 
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doftya wrote:
family seems to get in the way
Yea, I know. Families are a drag. :wink:

doftya wrote:
By the way, did anyone have any favorite design for a fly tying station?
Orvis has a fly-tying catalog that they sent me, they have several options for portable fly tying stations. It may be worth looking at their website for some ideas.

doftya wrote:
hat size were those ant flies you were using?
Most my ants are size 16-18. I believe the winged ant was size 14.

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PostPosted: June 11th, 2009, 12:33 pm 
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Well I'm doing some homework preparing for the hunt this weekend. I found this useful illustrations on rise forms:

Image

Image

Image

Some fun stuff on youtube:



The rise form in this clip is closest to Figure 2...or are surface feeding per Figure 3?

And this:



Surface feeding...fig 3...

And finally:



This is a real splashy rise...I'm not what to make of it. I would hazard to guess emergers of some sort?

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PostPosted: June 11th, 2009, 4:38 pm 
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My take:

1st video you showed. Early on, there is a fish nymphing. You can see the outline of the fish underwater, and occasional white flashes as it opens it's mouth to take in a nymph. No movement of the fish; no bulge of water at the surface--so probably not an emerger. Later in that clip, the fish is (are) clearly feeding on the surface. Can't tell if they are taking a dun from the top of the meniscus, or an emerger from underneath it.

2nd video looks to me like trout taking emerging caddis. Note how the trout rise vertically, as though they are seeing a rising caddis pupa, chasing it to the surface, then taking it as it pauses against the surface.

3rd video looks to me like fish taking adults on the surface. The "splashiness" may be related to wind blowing the bugs around on the water--note the movement of the vegetation.


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PostPosted: June 11th, 2009, 7:36 pm 
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Wow! The things that are starting to appear on YouTube. :D

I concur with NB 100%.

I guess the first vid shows the progression of a hatch. First nymphing, then switching to the emergers or maybe cripples just under the surface. A hackled dry will probably not take these fish... regardless of the presentation :wink: . Fish a trailing shuck Comparadun or equivalent dead drift..

The caddis rises are from fair sized fish. They don't propel themselves right out of the water like the little guys do. Plus, they're a bit more practiced. High stick a weighted nymph/bead head on a short line with a lift at the end of the drift. Doubt these seasoned pros will fall for an Elk Hair in this situation.

The last one appears to be energetic taking of duns on the surface, not a caddis splash at all. The fish is rising quickly and returning to its lie quickly. Water temps are likely in the low 60s, ideal for fish to be supercharged like that.

Rarely will you see rise forms that look like this in real life unless you fly fish from a bridge. Don't do that. I did it one time and was rewarded with a 5-6 pound brown on 5X as punishment for my sin. :doh:


Check these out:


Absolutely no doubt about what's happening here, eh? This is why you don't leave the water until dark.






These rises just might give you a heart attack if you are there at the time. Classic head-back-tail porpoising rises common in huge trout everywhere:



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PostPosted: June 14th, 2009, 8:35 pm 
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Well, nothing exciting to report this weekend. I did manage to slip away on Saturday morning....the Kinni was really quiet. I saw only a couple rises. There were no fish in the feeding lies that I had been fishing earlier. Even my nemesis trout in the hole by the inlet stream were taking the morning off.

I figured, if they are not going to come to my fly, I am going to have to bring it to them. I spent two hours bouncing bead heads down the rapids. I eventually hooked a 7" brook trout - but it broke free just before getting netted. I've been trying to land fish as quick as possible but this time it turned out a no-score. Somewhere in this game is the concept of complete submission. Once in the net, their fate is in my hands -- I win. Anything short of that is a no catch. Score one for the little brookie.

I finished packing for my Bloodvein River trip. I'm not bringing fishing gear because I am not really interested in Walleye and Pike. No doubt my companions will catch enough to make a dinner or two. I'll bring a book.....by Gary Borger.

Cheers all...I'll catch up in a couple weeks.

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PostPosted: July 11th, 2009, 4:12 pm 
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I'm baaack! Hey guys. I survived the Bloodvein - trip report to follow....later.

This morning I hit the Kinni again...I took my camera along since my phone was dead. I was on the water at 6:00. I ran into one other gentleman, so pushed a little downstream. Lots of activity this morning.

The first place I stopped was here - trying for the fish rising near the far bank:



I tried a few dry flies but couldn't "crack the code" as BK says...I moved down to a hole that did well for me a earlier this year...and the trout were very active:



I noticed small mayflies (white) on the water and realized I was in the middle of a hatch...here is a crummy picture of mayfly that drifted by me:

Image

I tied on a tiny #22 Blue wing olive and produced three small browns over the next 30 minutes or so...say hello:

Image

It then went quiet - though there were still lots of dead flies floating on the water. As I got back on the trail I met an angler named Clyde - and he fishes the Kinni alot since he lives in River Falls. He told me it was a Trico hatch - and pulled out a box of flies of his pattern that he used for these hatches. His daughter ties them for him because he no longer has the manual dexterity to do so. He gave me one (thanks!) and told me the Trico hatch occurs almost daily around 6:30 -7:00. I'm sure I'll see more of him - he's a wealth of information and was up on all the latest shocking data from the DNR. Apparently there are too many fish on the Upper Kinni and the DNR is encouraging harvesting! Also, the high school science class at River Falls shocked the South Branch of the Kinni and everyone was surprised for such a small stream the number and size of the Brookies.

Anyhow - it was getting after eight and I was hitting the trail home and tried one last spot. The fish were active and numerous but there was no obvious hatch. The fish were sipping something from the surface? They would rise almost in a cluster...wait and rise again. Here they are:



Those little rings are all fish! I tried and emerger, nymph and dry flies. Nadda. After 30 minutes or so I headed home. I stopped at the local hardware store to try and match Clyde's Trico, and found something similiar (less suggestive and more realistic?). I then stopped by the fly shop in Lake Elmo and found a pattern that was close - though it has more of a parachute and not individual wings. Clyde's fly is on the left:

Image

At any rate - I'll up early tomorrow armed with #18 and #22 Trico Mayfly imitations! (Not exactly a "hex hatch" but its the first hatch on the Kinni I have fished and identified!).

Cheers!

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PostPosted: July 12th, 2009, 11:55 am 
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Wow..that was the best morning of fishing I've ever had! I hit the water around 6:30 - I ran into this "Angler" hogging a prime fishing spot but he left when he saw me coming...



I love herons.

Anyways, I meandered to the hole I fished yesterday. As I was getting set-up I ran into Clyde again. I showed him the flies I picked up and he was unconvinced - he had me trim the parachute so it looked more like a spinner. The hatch hit around 7:15 and the sure enough the trout were active. I fished a single area with a deep hole and back-eddy. There were at least 20 trout packed in this one spot. I pulled four browns ranging from 10 -13". Here's the hole with the camera video. Its hard to see but the water is teeming with rising trout.



I am just amazed that trout that big would bother with a #22 Trico! I would have caught a lot more if I could have set the hook in them. The small hook doesn't always take. It also occurred to me that the spots I fished yesterday were secondary lies - splashy but small fish. This was prime real estate.

After the hatch Clyde stopped by and asked how I did...I gave him the score and he said - "Yea I caught a dozen or so like that down the way." I believe him. He says the Trico hatches will continue all summer. And - best of all - were to find the Trico spinners at the hardware store (a separate display tied by a local fisherman). I loaded up on Tricos on the way home.

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