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PostPosted: April 24th, 2005, 3:16 pm 
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RHaslam,

With all due respect to lifeless formulas, when they diagnose you with prostate cancer I don't believe you'll be going to the shamen in your old northern community for treatment. But rather you'll be chasing down every white coated geek you can find and looking for more scienfific answers than this trreatment came to me in a lucid dream .

I suspect the same to be true with your financial advisor. Don't want answers from him like 'our investment strategy for your retirement savings came to me in a dream' .
All this sasquatch / native dreaming mambo jambo is fine for round the fire fat chewing with a can of beer in hand .But when push comes to shove its science and its technologies we trust.


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PostPosted: April 24th, 2005, 4:11 pm 
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canoetripper,

It's interesting that you used the unsolved mysteries of cancer and financial advice as examples of where "science" is to be trusted more than "mumbo jumbo".

There's no cure for cancer and no infallible financial planning. There are just a few generally accepted things you can try and hope for the best. Maybe things will work out but maybe they won't.

I see as much blind faith in that approach as I see science.

If science can't conclusively answer a question that's of vital importance to us, then listening to what our dreams or the I Ching or tarot cards tell us is probably as valid as anything else.

-JF-


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PostPosted: April 24th, 2005, 8:18 pm 
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johnfrum wrote:
If science can't conclusively answer a question that's of vital importance to us, then listening to what our dreams or the I Ching or tarot cards tell us is probably as valid as anything else.

I'm confused, what question would that be?

First of all, the goal of science is not to answer questions? It is to develop explanations of observations. A scientific hypothesis is the first step in the explanation process. The key difference in a scientific hypothesis versus faith based beliefs is that a scientific hypothesis is falsifiable. So once a hypothesis is made, scientists try and disprove it. If they succeed they will modify it to accomodate the observations which were inconsistent with the original hypothesis. After seriuos attempts at falsifying the hypothesis fail, it is raised to the level of theory. The word truth is rarely used in science since it is always possible that further refinements will need to be made to theories.

In the case of Bigfoot, believers put forth the hypothesis that Bigfoot exists. it is not possible disprove this hypothesis, thus it really is not useful as a way to gain knowledge. Although it can be found to ponder and discuss.

The scientific hypothesis is that Bigfoot does not exist. There are numerous ways this can be disproved. Once credible evidence is obtained, the hypothesis will be modified. Note, this is not scientists claiming for certain that Bigfoot does not exist, implied is the possibility that this hypothesis is wrong and proof as such would be accepted.

As far as the rest of paranormal claims, numerous studies have been conducted which have failed to show any evidence that such powers exist. The amazing Randy put out a $1,000,000 reward for anyone who could prove their powers. It was never claimed.

A clear unknown area is around the power of the human mind to impact the health of the body. Placebos have clearly been shown to work, so we know there is something there. In my mind, medicine has clearly been wrong in not fully investigating and accepting alternative treatments. Fortunately, the scientific method will ultimately correct this problem.

Tony


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PostPosted: April 24th, 2005, 8:36 pm 
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RHaslam, Richard Feynman had a great deal of interest in lucid dreaming and even experimented with it to a small degree.

Johnfrum, I take it you’re not an oncologist. There may be no “cure” for cancer but there are treatments, we may not know with certainty if treatment will work but we do know with certainty why it works, and that’s what science does for us.

There seems to be a growing mistrust of science in general and medical science in particular because they have failed to provide us with all the answers. Truth is there is no failure; science only looks at what it can see and try to explain it in a rational way that avoids error and promotes unbiased verification. Science doesn’t know everything, but instead is a means to discover everything. Would you stop reading books because you can’t find the one you want?

To be fair the reason for this mistrust is many of the practitioners of science. Tony is correct when he states that science is not a faith based belief system, but scientists are just people, and people seem to have this habit of believing in things absolutely. As a result there are many who use science as a faith system and that is dangerous because science doesn’t always show us the whole picture (more like we aren’t always capable of seeing it) and these evangelical scientists end up with egg on their face. Doesn’t matter if you are a priest or a researcher, the second you think you have the book of truth you are a fool waiting to happen. But both books can provide us with guidance to discovering the world.

As a magician I’ve performed for people who refused to believe I didn’t posses supernatural powers, no matter how hard I’d explain it was a trick they’d just say I wasn’t open to the truth. This happens often enough I stopped doing any type of mind reading or psychic “effect” in my tricks. There has been talk of the same occurrences being shared around the world, well in my experience the one thing people around the world share is a desire to believe (for some it’s a need). I can tell you with certainty that there will be magic in this world as long as there are people left standing on it.

I believe god exists, but I know for a fact that science does. And I have faith in both, even if we mortals misunderstand what they both might be telling us from time to time.

After all we are only human.

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PostPosted: April 25th, 2005, 7:26 am 
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paddletothesea wrote:
Quote:
GWA wrote:
If there really were these creatures, I find it VERY hard to understand why no one has ever found a body or skeleton, in all the history of loggers, miners, hunters, natives, and other folks tramping all over the north woods. On the other hand, it would explain:

the foul odors in the night that my canoe partner SWEARS wasn't him

where the last candy bar went since neither of us ate it

the reason I feel like someone beat me with a baseball bat after sleeping in a tent a few nights on the ground. Can't be cuz I'm getting older, bigfoot worked me over in my sleep

who stepped on my fishing rod and broke it in the night, since neither of the kids knows anything about it...


DEPENDS ON HOW YOU LOOK AT IT. MAYBE THEY HAVE AND HAVENT REPORTED IT. SUPPOSE THERE ARE ONLY 300 IN THE ENTIRE WORLD? WELL THERE ARE 5000 GRIZZLEYS IN NORTH AMERICA AND IVE NEVER FOUND A SKELETON. THINK ABOUT THE NUMBER RATIO AND STATITICS OF FINDING ONE. THERE ARE CLOSE TO 150,000 SANDHILL CRANES IN NORTH AMERICA AND IVER NEVER FOUND A SKELETON EITHER. OR...WELL THERE ARE 6 BILLION HUMANS AND IVE ONLY FOUND 8 SKELETONS SO FAR. THERE HAVE BEEN NEARLY 50 SMALL PLANES CRASH IN THE PACIFIC NW SINCE THE EARLY 60S THAT HAVE NEVER EVER BEEN FOUND. DENCE REMOTE UNFORGIVING COUNTH WITH HIGH WET HUMITDITY THAT WOULD CAUSE A TWO BY FOUR TO ROT IN 3 WEEKS. HELL MAYBE THEY BURY THEIR DEAD. WHO KNOWS


Well, since you've never seen a grizzly skeleton, they must not exist. :roll: Nevermind the millions of other outdoor enthusiasts, surveyors, foresters, miners, lodge owners, and countless others who spend alot of time in remote areas. As for the guy that has never seen anthing bigger than a snapping turtle??? I have seen moose and/or bear (usually both) on every trip I've done in the last 5 years (over a dozen). Where do you go?? Downtown Toronto waterfront? Cmon, I'm a big a fan as anyone of campfire stories, but if a giant man-ape was running around, their absolutely would have been at least one carcass found, one good photo or video, one smacked by a logging truck, shot by a scared hunter, or one (non-hoax) footprint. I've been in remote country all over N America, and no matter how remote you think you are, you always stumble across a fly in camp or some other remains of human habitation. Also, name one other ape species that can survive or exists in the bitter cold climate similar to a long northern Ontario winter? Their aren't any, and for good reason.

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PostPosted: April 25th, 2005, 7:45 am 
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Ah yes, Canoetripper, thank you for re-affirming my belief in the dogmatic pushers of science-ism. If you haven't heard of something, you dismiss it as crap. To be sure, there are probably real scientific types out there who will examine questions with a critical and objective stance. I could refer you to Stephen Leberge, PHD, who has made a career studying lucid dreaming, and perhaps you might experience some consciousness raising, but since you already know all the answers, I won't bother trying.

You're a pretty good one for arriving at defective conclusions, for the science type. I always assumed that science type "geeks" looked at all the variables before they lept to their conclusions (or rather condemnations on your part). The world is full of things with no answers, maybe you should slow down a bit aqnd wonder if all your answers are right.

As far as the prostate is concerned, let's leave that little fellow out of your non-sequitur style of debate, and leave him in the good hands of our medically trained doctors who probably dread our annual check-ups as much as we do.

QED


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PostPosted: April 25th, 2005, 8:06 am 
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I see science having a purpose in allowing humans to understand the world they exist in more reliably, in essence understanding nature better, and I suppose this parallels Tony's definition in science's goal being to develop explanations of observations.

Some psychologists say that humans are only animals with big brains, and over many millions of years the five senses - vision, hearing, touch, smell and taste have evolved to allow animals to deal with the outside world more effectively. In an evolutionary sense, an animal with a big brain has stepped into the picture recently and developed an ability to reason and understand the outside world more effectively than the rest, and very recently this has led to the development of science which is a powerful method of understanding the world and adapting to it, as history shows. Another step in the evolution of animals with big brains.

I don't believe science can deal with conscious internal human realities well, but science can allow the conscious internal reality to deal well with the outside world, as an accessory to the five senses. "Never underestimate the ability of humans to fool themselves" is an old saying and this is where relying on sensory information only breaks down, and things like UFOs, Bigfoot, ghosts, Loch Ness monsters, ESP, yogic flying, alien abductions, faith healing, miracles, spoon bending, and all the rest of it persists. I'm still waiting for Madonna to jump onto the UFO bandwagon to reveal an alien abduction and start channelling information from another world in the next album. It'd probably sell very well, if it could be packaged tastefully enough. Bigfoot, too.

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PostPosted: April 25th, 2005, 8:38 am 
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Is “absence of proof in fact proof of absence?”
Will Achems Razor cut to the truth?
What IS a fact –
Aside from the conviction of belief?
The perception of an individual’s reality
So individually unique and real to the beholder
Yet an utter fabrication of imagination to all else

Something like 200 Billion stars in the Milky Way
A typical galaxy
A couple hundred billion of those that we can see
The human mind cannot comprehend numbers of this magnitude
Distance and scale lose context – we have no reference
Yet, “Science” likes to think it has the ability to comprehend all
Confine the cosmos and its wonders to “simple” formulae
It often says, “We are alone”
That we should know otherwise
It looses grasp context, striving to define content
Religion often says, “it is all for our benefit”
That WE are the context AND the content
It seems there is culture of blind faith in both paradigms
They were only wrong in the past
Certainly cannot be wrong in the now

There is magic
Look out the window
Look at the sky
Look in the mirror

I have seen a man shape
My partner saw it as well
We agreed on what we observed
And it was observing us
We don’t know what it was
It likely has a simple explanation
Yet the possibility exists
That we witnessed more magic
Because our eyes were open
Close your eyes on magic if you wish
Make your universe smaller
Should that provide comfort
And should it not –
Take comfort in the unknown
And embrace the magic of existence


BTW
The Phoenicians were all over the America’s, perhaps as early as 1000 BC! Recorded history is as fallible as the men who write it. It seems we are close to re-writing much of it.


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 Post subject: Re: Monkey suit?
PostPosted: April 25th, 2005, 9:13 am 
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John S wrote:
Fitzy wrote:
I may be totally out to lunch here, but didn't Roger Patterson, producer of that famous film of the Sasquatchy running off through the woods admit on his death bed that it was all a hoax? I was thinking he died in the last year or so.


I remember that story.

Quote:

Plus didn't photo enhancement show the zipper and changes in the fur between panels in the monkey suit???


I don't remember that part.
ACTUALLY THAT IS NOT TRUE AT ALL ABOUT THE PATTERSON FILM BEING SAID IT WAS A FAKE. YOU CAN READ ALL ABOUT IT ON THE HTTP://WWW.BFRO.NET FOR MORE INFO ON THE PATTERSON FILM. EVEN IF IT WAS FOUND TO BE A FAKE THAT ONE FILM ALONG IS NOT NEEDED AS THERE IS SO MUCH OTHER EVIDENCE FROM THE 20,000 RECORED SITINGS, DNA EVIDENCE, REPORTS BY HIGHLY REPUTED PEOPLE INCLUDING JANE GOODALL, MAGELLEN, DAVID THOMPSON, TEDDY ROOSEVELT, BEING SUPPORTED BY THE SMITHSONIAN ETC AS WELL.
SCIENTIST FIND HUNDREDS OF NEW SPECIES OF ANIMALS, INSECTS, FISH, PLANTS EVERY YEAR INCLUDING THIS YEARS EXPEDITION THAT FOUND A NEW TYPE OF HUMAN ON THE ISLANDS IN THE SOUTH PACIFIC. TINY PEOPLE THAT WERE ONLY THREE FEET TALL.

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PostPosted: April 25th, 2005, 9:23 am 
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TMP wrote:
Is “absence of proof in fact proof of absence?”
Will Achems Razor cut to the truth?
What IS a fact –
Aside from the conviction of belief?
The perception of an individual’s reality
So individually unique and real to the beholder
Yet an utter fabrication of imagination to all else


It is a fact that my desk is four feet long

TMP wrote:
Something like 200 Billion stars in the Milky Way
A typical galaxy
A couple hundred billion of those that we can see
The human mind cannot comprehend numbers of this magnitude


some human minds can comprehend such numbers though mine has great difficulty

TMP wrote:
Distance and scale lose context – we have no reference
Yet, “Science” likes to think it has the ability to comprehend all
Confine the cosmos and its wonders to “simple” formulae
It often says, “We are alone”


"science" knows nothing however some who practice it often feel we are not alone

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PostPosted: April 25th, 2005, 9:44 am 
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Quote:
SCIENTIST FIND HUNDREDS OF NEW SPECIES OF ANIMALS, INSECTS, FISH, PLANTS EVERY YEAR INCLUDING THIS YEARS EXPEDITION THAT FOUND A NEW TYPE OF HUMAN ON THE ISLANDS IN THE SOUTH PACIFIC. TINY PEOPLE THAT WERE ONLY THREE FEET TALL.


How did I miss this story, please post a link! Also, hit that button that says caps lock pls.

Quote:
AS THERE IS SO MUCH OTHER EVIDENCE FROM THE 20,000 RECORED SITINGS, DNA EVIDENCE, REPORTS BY HIGHLY REPUTED PEOPLE INCLUDING JANE GOODALL, MAGELLEN, DAVID THOMPSON, TEDDY ROOSEVELT, BEING SUPPORTED BY THE SMITHSONIAN ETC AS WELL.


I'd be mighty surprised if the Smithsonian has issued any sort of formal statement that they believe bigfoot exists. I'm sure their are far more than 20000 reported sightings of UFO's, but that doesn't prove their are little green men. I myself am a bit of a starwatcher, and I've seen some things I wouldn't want to have to explain, but Occum's Razor is pretty darn sharp, and I'd be willing to wager thier was a simpler explanation short of flying saucers.

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PostPosted: April 25th, 2005, 10:30 am 
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Fellow Experts ,

Sasquatches and UFO's might be left to those of more powerful intellects.
Can I offer something more mundane that needs explanation .
Most are familiar with the desk ornament that has a number of steel balls hanging from strings. When one ball is pulled back it knocks off one at the other end. If you pull two balls back then two balls pop off the other end. How do they know you have pulled back 2 balls as opposed to one. Also if you pull one back and give it more speed you can only get one ball to pop off the other end. Somehow the resting balls seem to 'know' how many balls are being pulled back. But how ? Magic ? How would aboriginals explain this phenomena ? Nothing esoteric here like lucid dreams just an almost stupid kids toy. Good luck ccr Einsteins !


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PostPosted: April 25th, 2005, 10:49 am 
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Magic is just mystery, because you can't explain it it's magic. When you can, it stops being magic.

As for the balls it basically has to do with the mass of the balls you lift, it takes the mass of one ball to create the energy to move one ball and the mass of two balls to move two. The toy "knows" nothing, just like your car doesn't "know" how far you've pressed the gas pedal, you just press it far enough to allow gas flow that creates energy.

Damn, now I've gone and distroyed some more magic! :doh:

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PostPosted: April 25th, 2005, 10:54 am 
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"It is a fact that my desk is four feet long"


Are you sure?
By what device do you measure?
To what precision?
Are you saying "its four feet point zero zero zero... infinity?"
Four feet is either an approximation or an absolute, depending on your view.

No one can put cosmic scale numbers into a context that they can identify with. There are individuals who can understand them and work with them and to them, they make perfect sense. But even Hawkins cannot grasp the essence of the vastness contained within these numbers. Was it not him who said so?

To the Einstein question – perhaps it’s more of a Newton thing, I don’t know. I was always weak in physics.


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 Post subject: bigfoot
PostPosted: April 25th, 2005, 10:55 am 
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Newton’s third law
“for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction”
Science rears it's ugly head again...


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