View topic - the painter experience poll

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I have...
Alot of ideas about throw-ropes and painters that hopefully will never be put to the test 34%  34%  [ 14 ]
setup z-drags in controlled situations 20%  20%  [ 8 ]
rescued boats with rope setups in day-trip rivers 22%  22%  [ 9 ]
rescued boats with rope setups in remote wilderness CIII or more difficult 12%  12%  [ 5 ]
all of the above 12%  12%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 41
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PostPosted: January 12th, 2009, 10:47 pm 
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We got alot of people talking... how much experience is out there v. theory...

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PostPosted: January 13th, 2009, 9:07 am 
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I've never been the primary in either a day trip or a wilderness trip ergo I voted controlled setting. I've been a minor part of the team in day situations and for the wilderness it has been just muscling a boat out of a small technical spot. Despite liking playboating we don't view running big rapids in a wilderness setting as a badge of honor. (not impling that you do, just explaining our philosphy which is metered largely by having kids along always) If we are pretty sure it's got a cleanish run with little concequence we run. It works for us...others have different goals, we'll meet you at the bottom of the rapid

I have the good fortune to have pretty decent tripping mates (who are on CCR but won't name cause they don't need to be guilty by association :lol: )and Hubby has a better head for these things. I review the knots and logic before each season. I figure when it comes to safety our crew is probably one of the most solid (not because of me) because there are no coyboys running stuff beyond their comfort and two....dam the boys and girls like their pieces of paper and get all excited over new rope options. Cool with me, knot-o-tards are smart enough to make sure the talent pool is good. I feel pretty lucky to have them in my company....good people and every now and then they grit their teeth and show me the knots all over again and again...thanks guys :D

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 Post subject: Painters and throw bags
PostPosted: January 13th, 2009, 10:05 am 
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Location: Freeland, Maryland USA
I have never rescued a boat on a remote wilderness whitewater river with a rope setup. I have done so on day trips and easier rivers, so I guess I have the skills. And hope I never have to put them into practice in that situation (I am admittedly more cautious on wilderness trips than daypaddling close to home).

Yes, I have a lot of ideas about throw ropes and painters, and many of them have already been put to the test.

For example I have painters attached to all of our canoes, but my personal preference is for a relatively short (15 to 20 foot) painter line that can be swapped out for a longer line if needed. Something like 50 feet of line would be awkwardly long for most of my routine applications.

All of our canoes have bungee on the deck plates for use as a painter keeper. On larger plastic deck plates that bungee is a single length run in a sideways Z pattern so the painter can be stowed on top of the deck (between the two runs of bungee) or below the deck plate on narrow rivvers with grabby branches.

I like quality, floating, high contrast color line and am slowly replacing all of our regular use painter line (some of which is still cheap kernmantle Home Depot stuff)

I likewise have ideas about throw bags; we have 6 throw bags (4 paddlers in the family, and we keep a spare throw bag in each vehicle as well). I haven’t found the “perfect” throwbag yet.

From the swimmer’s perspective I like grabbing/holding 3/8” line better than ¼” line, but from the thrower’s perspective I can get better distance and accuracy with ¼” line. The narrower the bag opening the longer it takes me to resuff the line (although I have never hurriedly restuffed a full length of rope in a throw bag for a 2nd throw after missing, only partial stuff or coil and throw). I do release the rope from the bag and hang it to dry after most trips, and always after it has been used or gotten wet.

We don’t use our throw bags for anything except rescues or practice; we carry a rope bag on trips with line for other purposes, and that bag has 50’ of spectra line as augmentation for rescue or Z-drag purposes.

One recent throw bag revelation – I was on a trip January 1st where the air temps were well below freezing. The boats, paddles and gear were coated with ice, the painter lines were frozen solid and spray covers stiff as a board by the end of the trip.

One thing I hadn’t considered with such conditions was my throwbag – it was pretty solid despite being clipped accessibly behind me on the stern thwart and elevated well off the bilge (I took a couple of big standing waves into the canoe at one point).

The line in that bag would not have deployed at all, and I’ll now be thinking more about throwbag storage on winter trips.


Last edited by Mike McCrea on January 13th, 2009, 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: January 13th, 2009, 10:52 am 
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Who's the "real deal" vs. the armchair enthusiast? Who cares?

Like a good MYCCR citizen, however, I submitted my vote. :wink:

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PostPosted: January 13th, 2009, 12:50 pm 
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Battenkiller wrote:
Who's the "real deal" vs. the armchair enthusiast? Who cares?

Like a good MYCCR citizen, however, I submitted my vote. :wink:


I had a similar thought.... I've pulled a few boats and people out of the drink, and have had my boat and myself pulled out as well.... but the poll sounded more like an attempt to add "more creedance to some posts than to others." I'm not sure that accomplishes much. Back over the holidays, I was looking through a few pictures that involved some busted boats, and swims on my part. I found myself reflecting on my lack of judgement. My creating that situation that potentially put others at risk, rather than that the degree of rescue as a badge of honor.

But I played along.. Vote submitted as well.

PK


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PostPosted: January 13th, 2009, 1:47 pm 
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Hmmm....

I thought the poll question was fair.

Personally I'd hadn't commented on the original painter length thread. But I had read most of it at one time or another.

Like others, I have my own opinions on some things - eg: the painters on my flatwater boats are long enought to tie together in the middle. If I need something longer I'll tie on another rope when I need it. - but nothing strong enough to add to the moving water thread. I've seen throw bags used for the painters on playboats and it's looked like a good idea to me.

At the same time, I've had some introduction to boat rescue techniques, and whenever I've done a moving water course I've done my share of swimming ( I figure if I'm not swimming at some point then I'm not trying hard enough), but I've never had to actually rescue a pinned boat. Taking a swift water rescue course is on my wishlist of things to do.

Just like first aid, I can see actually trying to rescue a boat, and possibly a tangled swimmer, as being a lot different in real life than even in a course. Similarly I can see that same rescue being a lot different in a wilderness environment than in either a controlled course setting or a day tripping environment.

I think that in considering advice and opinions on most topics it's worth knowing whether the information is based on experience, training, both experience and training, or even just plain hypothesizing over a couple of social beverages.

Let's take the poll question at face value and see where it goes.

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PostPosted: January 13th, 2009, 2:37 pm 
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I've
Quote:
setup z-drags in controlled situations

I've also
Quote:
rescued boats with rope setups in day-trip rivers
as well as
Quote:
in remote wilderness CIII


A lot of good discourse. Experience is good but the knowledge base is expanding so there is a need to keep an open mind and stay current.

Use what works for you, and be safe.

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PostPosted: January 13th, 2009, 3:09 pm 
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Splake wrote:
Hmmm....

I thought the poll question was fair.


The Poll itself is fair, taken standing alone. I just felt like the timing of a Poll might be considered more suspect given that folks were beginning to question others reasoning....and I'm willing to admit that my feelings are not empirical.

PK


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PostPosted: January 13th, 2009, 5:23 pm 
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The point of the poll was 3-fold:

1. Try out the new multi-optiontion poll function
2. Re-affirm my position as an elitist in case my abscence has led to forgetulness
3. Find out where people actually stand.

FWIW i have rescued boats in CIII + a few times. I have never been the one to wrap/pin it (one time is debateable)

Keep in mind that rescue starts where safety fails.

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PostPosted: January 13th, 2009, 5:29 pm 
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I think it's an excellent poll question
Battenkiller wrote:
Who's the "real deal" vs. the armchair enthusiast? Who cares?
:

I for one, would much rather take advice from somebody who has actually had to use this technique, rather than from somebody who read about it in a book.


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PostPosted: January 13th, 2009, 5:53 pm 
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Quote:
2. Re-affirm my position as an elitist in case my abscence has led to forgetulness


No fear....you are hard to forget :D

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PostPosted: January 13th, 2009, 9:39 pm 
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Another poll that could be asked.....

How many have throw bags......

How many practice with their bags......

How many daisy chain their wet ropes after that days paddling.....

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PostPosted: January 13th, 2009, 10:16 pm 
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Location: Moosonee, ON
Wow, check out where my little question has led! :D I'm really enjoying the discussion. Being newer to "proper" whitewater running, (ie, I just bought a helmet this year :-? ) I don't have any wisdom to offer, but certainly appreciate all the ideas, views and perspectives.


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PostPosted: January 14th, 2009, 1:38 am 
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I was with a group this spring that had our rescue skills tested to the limit. Good experience to have, lousy experience to get. We now make sure more of our paddling partners carry more gear ('biners and pulleys), the right gear (hauling rope, not just throw rope) and practice knots etc. more often.

It's been so long for wilderness rescues that I didn't click it, and most wilderness rescues haven't used rope set ups. Plus, having to unwrap a canoe on a wilderness trip is not something I'd consider a badge of honour!

There's nothing wrong with book learning and untested theories for some stuff!!

PY.

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PostPosted: January 14th, 2009, 5:54 am 
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Pat,
Its hardly ever or next to it did doesn't happen with the people that I boat. That said..... there are many people boating here in Ontario and all to often either on day trips or wilderness trips you come accross someone in some sort of a situation.

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