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I have...
Alot of ideas about throw-ropes and painters that hopefully will never be put to the test 34%  34%  [ 14 ]
setup z-drags in controlled situations 20%  20%  [ 8 ]
rescued boats with rope setups in day-trip rivers 22%  22%  [ 9 ]
rescued boats with rope setups in remote wilderness CIII or more difficult 12%  12%  [ 5 ]
all of the above 12%  12%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 41
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PostPosted: January 14th, 2009, 8:15 am 
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as usual, none of hte poll questions are exact matches for me - so my answers are "sort of".

I used to annualy practice Z-drag set up for climbing rescue practice, set up to haul a practice victim and rescuer up to the top (though its been several years since I've done that). exactly the same set up as for canoe rescue practice, but I've not practiced a z-drag on the river (so I clicked a yes to that one - sort of) I usually carry a 150' static line and pin kit on ww and weekend river trips.

since the poll is titled "the painter experience poll", I took the question about actually having rescued a boat on day trips to include catching a stray boat by its painter and towing it to shore ? (inluding my own and other person's boats) I've done that a few times, as well as fishing out swimmers with a throw rope in real instances. so another "sort of" answer


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PostPosted: January 14th, 2009, 8:36 am 
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Al's questions:
1. adults carry one each, tripping there's two bags between two canoes each canoe has one beanered to the bow or stern webbing. The rescue kit with pulleys and beaners, webbing and prusics is in a twart bag on the cargo ship (usually my canoe). The repair kits is barreled...if it's a day trip we usually leave alot of the gear in the paddling bag ...see below as to why, for tripping we tend to be more redundant on equipment (except throw bags as thye are required by law (well the rope part is)

2 practice not as often as I should and less in moving water.... the neighbours are famliar with weird things happening on my lawn....from bag practice, tieing on canoes in -20 for winter pool sessions, to the fleet lined up for mass mantience and check.

3. don't dasy chain but I do haul out and dry and re-pack after inspection after every trip because they do get wet. Replaced the ropes last year

yes, there are numberous oportunities to practice canoe rescue. Even on pretty easy rivers like the Mad there is one rock that gives beginners a run for the money.....seems there's one canoe wrapped there every year.
What I bring depends on who I'm going with. There is no need for over redundancy. (everyone usually has at least one high rated beaner) We've got two chaps that have pro kits and always bring them.....yes always....I appreciatively refer to them as our boy scouts and they usually end up as the lead and the rigger with one of us being the strong swimmer and the rest as grunt labor. While I've taken moving water rescue, it is expired....
If you have a usual crew it might be worth talking over the what ifs and who's got what and a general idea of what you will do. Saves time if you have an automatic lead. Know where the equipment is
If you're lunching at a technical spot imagine a canoe warapped and where you'd place your anchors and how it would change with postion on the rock. what ratio would you need..just a quite 10 minute mental game.
Just talking off the top of my head.....I've stated time and time again I'm no expert so for me the poll is redundant
Matt...yea did the tow and capture lots of times; I thought they wanted to know rigging a z-drag.....

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PostPosted: January 14th, 2009, 9:18 am 
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Why are they called painters?


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PostPosted: January 14th, 2009, 9:59 am 
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I've painted
I've been painted
I've slept with a painter
I've paid a painter (for painting, not for sex)
I've thrown a rope
I've thrown a fit
I've thrown a chicken
I've tossed my cookies

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PostPosted: January 14th, 2009, 10:01 am 
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thrown the dice?

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PostPosted: January 14th, 2009, 10:03 am 
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pknoerr wrote:
I had a similar thought.... I've pulled a few boats and people out of the drink, and have had my boat and myself pulled out as well.... but the poll sounded more like an attempt to add "more creedance to some posts than to others." I'm not sure that accomplishes much.
Quote:
The Poll itself is fair, taken standing alone. I just felt like the timing of a Poll might be considered more suspect given that folks were beginning to question others reasoning.


Bingo.

Quote:
Back over the holidays, I was looking through a few pictures that involved some busted boats, and swims on my part. I found myself reflecting on my lack of judgement. My creating that situation that potentially put others at risk, rather than that the degree of rescue as a badge of honor.


:clap:

PK, you hit the nail on the head. Humility in response to poor judgment rather than arrogance over our ability to solve the problems that that judgment created is the mark of a mature individual. The wilderness is no place for poor judgment, be it running rapids or using an axe carelessly. Relying on your "experience" to get you out of trouble only means you are in the habit of getting into trouble.

I'm a "think twice, act once" kind of guy at this stage of the game. Maybe my declining testosterone levels have something to do with that, which is probably why I don't hang out at the rowdier bars either. Not only can't I fight as well as I used to when I was young, I have nothing left to prove to anyone anymore.

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PostPosted: January 14th, 2009, 10:59 am 
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Common guys :lol:
stop being testy over the question or timing.......
lets face it; there are some of us that are more chatty than others and respond to polls. There are way more people reading than writing and i think it's prudent once and awhile to hit home that people need to take things around here with a grain of salt....on many levels. And take it as a body of knowledge/opinion rather than gospil....it's no excuse not to further your research
Don't get me wrong; due in part to....and I'm not sucking up :lol: ....credit is due Allan has put a shit load of work into revamping the routes section and linking resources.... there's alot of new and experienced using the site to check on things even if they don't post.....
We aren't just chatting amongst ourselves...well unless it's politics and then they wisely ignore us
Anyways Dan, decent question.
there's a ying and yang to every situation...... my wish is that nobody needs to take their rescue kits out next season......
It really sucks when there's more than a canoe at risk.

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PostPosted: January 14th, 2009, 12:33 pm 
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Gail R wrote:
Common guys :lol:
stop being testy over the question or timing.......


Hey, I'm not being testy... it's all just banter, and I'm around here enough to know who has been out there and who talks a good game. But, when I read the poll, my first perception was as I stated... Why do we need a thread to "seperate" because that's what polls do. I played along putting in my vote. But then when Bk's thoughts mirrored mine... I added my original feelings. He had a point that shouldn't be marginalized.

I'm all for pushing the envelope (and I've done my fair share, you can ask my paddling buds).... but I've had more than one whitewater instructor that told me "If you have to roll in a canoe... you f- - -ed up! If you have to rescue or retrieve... you really f- - -ed up!!!" We all know people who swim time after time after time. It's a part of the learning process. We've all done it. But I'm not proud of any of my swims (or busted boats)... and even the least dangerous potentially could have been much worse or endangered someone else.

So, personally, I'd rather have a buttoad of upsets, rescues, busting boats, whatever in reasonably controlled daytrips along with tens of thousands of miles of whitewater wilderness tripping rather than have even one major rescue or retrieve in Class III+ in a full-on wilderness experience. It happens, but as I hear every year in my safety training it doesn't have to.... and if it does.... somebody really F- - -ed up!!!!!!

PK


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PostPosted: January 14th, 2009, 2:32 pm 
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I'm not being testy either, just taking a jab at Dan because that's what I do. He boasts because that's what he does, but I still like the guy. I was a prideful SOB when I was a youngster, but life has a way of teaching you humility through humiliation. Needing help because you pushed the envelope way beyond your perceived abilities will provide that humiliation for you.

My "who cares?" comment was more along the lines of respecting book learning as well as first hand experience. Who do you want holding your heart in his hands when they crack your chest open after the "big one" lays you down on the sidewalk, the guy who was top of his class in med school or the guy who learned "on the job" in some third world village?

Also, it's all a moot point because the folks I want near me in a desperate situation are the cool thinkers, folks who can calmly do what's required even if it goes against everything that they were "trained" to do and practiced religiously.

American Whitewater keeps a database of moving water accidents that is very informative. Many entries have links to details of the accidents. Some of the most intense rescue efforts required novel things like rappelling down bridge abutments - not usually covered during the course of a WW rescue class.

Here is a link to one of their accident reports. It happened nearby, on the very same river that I mentioned in an earlier thread where I was almost sucked under a log strainer.

The Kayderosseras is only rated Class I-II with a short Class III section, but in high water that Class III section is just about all any open boater can handle, with water raging through a vicious S-curve that runs between jagged cliff walls. I don't know exactly where the victim almost met his demise, but it is worth noting that:

-He was a very experienced kayaker who actually authored the write up of that particular stream in a well known guide book

-It was not a remote wilderness river but rather a somewhat smallish flow that wanders in and out of the rural countryside.

-The obstruction (yup, a log strainer just like I encountered) was unavoidable and flipped both the victim and his paddling partner

-The immediate action by the shuttle driver (the victim's son) was responsible for saving his life

-No ropes, carabiners or Z-drag setups were used in the rescue

http://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/Accident_detail_accidentid_1102_

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PostPosted: January 14th, 2009, 3:41 pm 
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Battenkiller wrote:
I'm not being testy either, just taking a jab at Dan because that's what I do. He boasts because that's what he does, but I still like the guy.


Dan's a durable guy who can take a little flack and shovel it right back at us if he so chooses. This won't be the first time he's been jabbed. :-?

PK


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PostPosted: January 14th, 2009, 3:47 pm 
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my favorite ccr "k"'s.....common there was a smiley
and give credit
Dan had the perfect snooker and you two volunteered to walk in the chineese finger puzzle
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
anyways, carry on with exaples and triage..... I'm between reads and need some material

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PostPosted: January 14th, 2009, 4:44 pm 
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I'm all for pushing the envelope (and I've done my fair share, you can ask my paddling buds).... but I've had more than one whitewater instructor that told me "If you have to roll in a canoe... you f- - -ed up! If you have to rescue or retrieve... you really f- - -ed up!!!" We all know people who swim time after time after time. It's a part of the learning process. We've all done it. But I'm not proud of any of my swims (or busted boats)... and even the least dangerous potentially could have been much worse or endangered someone else.

So, personally, I'd rather have a buttoad of upsets, rescues, busting boats, whatever in reasonably controlled daytrips along with tens of thousands of miles of whitewater wilderness tripping rather than have even one major rescue or retrieve in Class III+ in a full-on wilderness experience. It happens, but as I hear every year in my safety training it doesn't have to.... and if it does.... somebody really F- - -ed up!!!!!!

PK[/quote]

I agree to a point, I don't know if I'd call all cases F'd-up, if they're experienced wilderness trippers and its done on a wilderness trip then yes!. But a youth camp with inexperinced youth on Dumoine, then its just that, they lacked the water reading skills.
Then even if its very experinced creekers like the many that I boat with and you end up rolling in class IV - V water.....I'm thinking not, they didn't F-up...... simply put , something happen that they did not see and never would have seen when they were scouting that water or the hole that they where playing in just got the better of them...... it's sh... happens! :wink:

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PostPosted: January 14th, 2009, 4:59 pm 
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Except for in the wilderness I have done all the others, some on day trips that getting help would still be a hassle.
Always got lots of practice at Minden when I was Prov. Coach and going up there all the time.
On city rivers it is usually someone who thinks it's easy, runs the river at late spring levels, then comes out in flood conditions in frigid temps.
On the Gull and other day trips it was generally a group or one individual that took a weekend intro course and then macho man set in :doh:
Clubs or organized groups have always tended to be more aware of the skills available.
But it always made for a good teaching session for my group :D
Jeff

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PostPosted: January 14th, 2009, 9:59 pm 
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Battenkiller wrote:
I'm not being testy either, just taking a jab at Dan because that's what I do. He boasts because that's what he does, but I still like the guy.


I seem to vaugly remember a trip to the Ottawa where we were going to decide empiricaly if canoe could plane or not....

As I recall i was the only guy that showed up who could cross and eddyline without swimming....

Some dude fell out of his lifejacket because that guy hadn't tested his rescue system before.

So i was just wondering how many people there are out there that haven't tested their lifejacket and all that giving technical rope advice.


Don't worry about giving me flack.... As I posted years ago here "Its Just the Internet".

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PostPosted: January 14th, 2009, 10:22 pm 
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[quote="DanDon't worry about giving me flack.... As I posted years ago here "Its Just the Internet".[/quote]

ya, but now you are in your own place still getting flack. :D

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