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 Post subject: Learning To Roll
PostPosted: June 17th, 2010, 3:13 pm 
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Joined: April 10th, 2009, 10:09 am
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Location: Guelph - Ontario
Hey

I recently bought my first solo playboat. After watching some movies on youtube I figured I would be able to just figure out how to roll, but after a couple hours in the pool its not happening. Does anybody know of any good movies or tutorials online that can help me learn?

Thanks,
Curlyfries


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 Post subject: Re: Learning To Roll
PostPosted: June 17th, 2010, 3:56 pm 
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Hi Curlyfries,

Your best bet is to find a club, or group, or friend, or instructor who will spend some time teaching you.

Other than that, what worked for me is Thrill of the Paddle and Kent Ford's solo playboating videos.

Now though, YouTube is probably as good a place as any, if you find the right videos.

Best resource of canoe rollers is c-boats.net. There's nothing you could ask about that hasn't been described on that forum. Here's the most recent related thread of many:

http://www.cboats.net/cforum/viewtopic. ... ight=learn

Good luck, Pat.

p.s. Stay rotated square to the bottom and keep your head/face down as long as possible - lifting the head is probably the most common trouble point, once you figure out some basics.

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 Post subject: Re: Learning To Roll
PostPosted: June 17th, 2010, 4:02 pm 
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Here's another 6-pages:

http://www.cboats.net/cforum/viewtopic. ... head+blade


And a variation on the theme:

http://www.cboats.net/cforum/viewtopic. ... ch+rolling

Reading all that should give you a few things to focus on, and re-reading for a few more, and so on.

Pat.

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Learning to paddle is like learning a language:
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 Post subject: Re: Learning To Roll
PostPosted: June 17th, 2010, 4:59 pm 
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Joined: July 9th, 2001, 7:00 pm
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Location: Cambridge, Ontario
There's a Bob Foote video out there that many people found helpfull. I had a copy but can no longer locate it.

It's something that takes practice. It really helps to have someone spotting you, telling you what's being done wrong and pushing you up the last few inches to reduce frustration levels! Also, a paddle float is helpfull in learning - I know it helps me.

PS... One mistake I continually make is trying to lift my body straight up, rather than hinge it forward once the open side is out of the water.... do this and you'll never get it!


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 Post subject: Re: Learning To Roll
PostPosted: June 17th, 2010, 5:10 pm 
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Joined: October 20th, 2006, 12:15 pm
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Location: calgary
If you are practising in a pool,hold on to the edge,keep square to the boat,and practice your hip flick,that is where most of the roll comes from,also a good low brace helps(rub your nose from one gunwale to the other) to as that is the last part of the roll. This is what I was told and practiced,but still don't have it yet


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 Post subject: Re: Learning To Roll
PostPosted: June 17th, 2010, 7:51 pm 
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Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario Canada
woodenkayak guy wrote:
If you are practicing in a pool, hold on to the edge, keep square to the boat, and practice your hip flick, that is where most of the roll comes from,


This learning technique was the single biggest training help to me "getting it". This is done without the paddle, and using your hands on the pool edge. Keep your face and head in the water and try to do almost everything with the hip snap. Open boats need serious hippage to break that seal, and get that pig of a boat starting to roll. On the pool edge, practice on using less and less hand pressure to get that roll going with your hips.

This practice will also indicate if your rigging is too sloppy. I found out that my side anchor points were rigged too conservatively (beginner-intermediate), and I would pop out of my thigh straps half the time, losing the roll. I need to place a new high anchor more aggressive for being able to hang in longer and stronger. Rigging though is a trade off as to how comfortable you feel in tight rigging while you are upside down holding your breath - You do need to be able to exit with 100% confidence.

Although my paddle push and low head arc weight shift does the finishing move, I try to get most of it done with the hips. Strive to do most of it with the hips, even exaggerating the move in the pool practice, and then burn that into the muscle memory.

That old Kent Ford video is golden. Try and find that and watch it over and over again.

There are other fine points, like grip hand placement relative to the face; blade placement angle at the surface, etc.

Now, to work on my offside roll........ :D

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 Post subject: Re: Learning To Roll
PostPosted: June 17th, 2010, 8:13 pm 
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Joined: April 10th, 2009, 10:09 am
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Location: Guelph - Ontario
Thanks for the advice. Im going to try using the side of the pool tomorrow.

How tight should I be to my outfitting? When I have my straps as tight as they will go, I can still get about an inch or half an inch off of the saddle. The D- ring placement doesn't let me keep the straps as high as I would like them.

CurlyFries


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 Post subject: Re: Learning To Roll
PostPosted: June 17th, 2010, 9:40 pm 
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Act like your shaft hand is glued to your fore head.. -> this tip is what got me to roll.

Shove your grip hand into your gut and keep it there. These two point will prevent you from pushing down on your paddle.

Rock your boat back and forth to generate inertia, this is helpful in squirly water, although it does increase your face time.

If your arms hurt you are doing it wrong, if your abs hurt you are doing it right. -> keep this in mind for the pool edge thing. If you can feel it in the arms, you will not be able to do it with a paddle.

Think about getting the boat underneath you, NOT getting yourself out of the water.

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 Post subject: Re: Learning To Roll
PostPosted: June 17th, 2010, 10:49 pm 
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Good advice.

In addition to tightening your thigh straps, think about whether your knee pads and other outfitting are good - you want all your energy to go into rolling the hull up & underneath you. I find a lot of people may need to add knee straps or knee wedges on the sides of the their hulls - you want good contact with the boat, and your body parts shouldn't slide around when you go to initiate something. My thigh straps keep me in the saddle when I flip, but it's the contact at the knees that I use to control the boats tilt while paddling.

Pat.

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 Post subject: Re: Learning To Roll
PostPosted: June 17th, 2010, 11:12 pm 
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yarnellboat wrote:
In addition to tightening your thigh straps, think about whether your knee pads and other outfitting are good - you want all your energy to go into rolling the hull up & underneath you. I find a lot of people may need to add knee straps or knee wedges on the sides of the their hulls - you want good contact with the boat, and your body parts shouldn't slide around when you go to initiate something. My thigh straps keep me in the saddle when I flip, but it's the contact at the knees that I use to control the boats tilt while paddling.


I have knee straps, so my knees do not budge. I am only a bit concerned because when i push up as hard as i can against the thigh straps, they slide down about an inch before my thighs feel secure. By then I'm bout an inch off of the saddle. Is this a problem? If it is, would there be a way to fix it without putting new D rings in?


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 Post subject: Re: Learning To Roll
PostPosted: June 17th, 2010, 11:30 pm 
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It's only a problem if you're falling out of your outfitting while upside in the water and trying to roll - I wouldn't worried about what you can can't do with your butt while sitting in your backyard.

If you're struggling to stay in your boat when flip, tighten something - could be thigh straps, toe blocks, whatever - it's kinda a package thing of you-and-your-boat, not just whether you lift x part x inches in x circumstance.

Basically, if it's a problem while rolling, adjust something; otherwise, don't worry about it and get out there and start working on your position and movements.

So, when you flip, do you accidentally slip out ofyour outfitting?

Pat.

p.s. You may be able to tighten your outfitting by adding a loop to your existing attachment points, in effect raising the point where your thigh straps anchor and putting things higher up on your thighs. I've done this, and I used 2" webbing on a quick-release buckle (e.g. a buckle like used on the rescue belts of rescue PFDs) as my loop - which also adds a release option to your straps. A cheap & easy adjustment, though putting in new anchors points may not be that big a deal either.

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Learning to paddle is like learning a language:
It's easy to learn the basics, but will you be understood in a strong wind?


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 Post subject: Re: Learning To Roll
PostPosted: June 18th, 2010, 9:25 am 
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Once you get your roll its very important to start dropping over on your offside and learning to turtle the boat back to your onside. As 95% of the time or better, when out on the river, you'll fall over on your offside as you have no brace over there.

Also developing a roll in a C1 will speed your learning curve as you're not wasting energy on a heavy boat filled with water.

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 Post subject: Re: Learning To Roll
PostPosted: June 18th, 2010, 10:04 am 
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Two things that helped me learn the roll quickly were:

1. Imagination: I practiced several times a day until it became ingrained. I did it in slow motion and really concentrated on what it would feel like and where my body parts were supposed to be.

2. Practicing the hip snap on a Swiss ball. its a little hard to picture but something similar to this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGXwkylvdlM

I did that before I ever tried rolling and with the help of a spotter I had it in about 10min.

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 Post subject: Re: Learning To Roll
PostPosted: June 18th, 2010, 1:04 pm 
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yarnellboat wrote:
It's only a problem if you're falling out of your outfitting while upside in the water and trying to roll
So, when you flip, do you accidentally slip out ofyour outfitting


I stay in the boat fine, so i guess its good.


I went out and practiced in the pool again this morning. I got it down no problem holding on to the side of the pool, but I couldn't get the boat past 90o with the paddle. I also flipped over and just hung out upside down a couple times just to get a feel for what its like underwater. What should the 'hip flick' be like? Right now I feel like most of the work is being done with my arms.

Thanks for all the advice so far,
CurlyFries


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 Post subject: Re: Learning To Roll
PostPosted: June 18th, 2010, 1:49 pm 
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Try to look like a "Slinky" toy. only reverse, or like a glass of water being poured..
If it feels like all arms, it is.
How is the transition from high brace to low brace.
Too slow or loosing the blade angle.
Paddle angle compared to the boat.
Your paddle could be too close to the boat if your are doing a screw roll.
Paddle angle should be 45 at least.
If you are doing a sweep roll you may be pulling down on the paddle instead of sweeping it across the surface and that would pull your upper body out first.
As you are setting up your roll twist your body to the roll side as much as you can.
When you start the initial stoke the first thing to move should be the boat with the hip flick. If your head is coming up first it will not work.
When you are set up for the roll stroke look at the bottom of the river (or pool)l through your arm pit and keep it there until your centre of gravity is back in the boat.
How long is your paddle?
Try to shorten your grip a few more inches for more leverage.
Also learn the flag roll, your boat may be part of the problem if it is a wide boat.
Jeff

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