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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: May 23rd, 2021, 2:19 pm 
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Painting a canoe is like anything else boatwork related; 90% of the effort is prep work, and the better job done there the better each subsequent step will turn out.

There are a lot of niggly but helpful mentions buried in the photo heavy verbose links not included in the TL:DR bullet list above. To wit and to add:

The first coat uses a surprising quantity of paint. No worries, the 2nd (and 3rd) coats use much less. A quart of paint should easily lay three coats on a 16’ canoe, with a bit left over. Rolled coats don’t need to/are best not laid drippy thick, especially if doing a 2nd or 3rd coat.

Tipping out, like many things, is learned technique that gets better with practice. The angle at which the foam brush is held matters. A contiguous brush line, stem to stem without stopping, matters. The amount of paint on the foam brush matters; starting with a little paint on the brush each tip out line will pick up a bit more. Again, I will almost guarantee that your tip out technique on the 2nd or 3rd coats will be improved.

It is easy to see where the 1st coat has “holidays”, thin spots, missed areas, etc. Holidays on the second and third coats, being same-on-same color are harder to spot. Of the remaining 10% of boatwork half of that falls into the “Pay attention” realm. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

When visually inspecting a first or second coat before repainting some glare off the hull is helpful to spot holidays, sags or drips. I flag any sags or drips with a squib of painters tape to identify areas in need of special sanding attention.

If you are using a pricey topside or epoxy paint, any paint really, you may as well prep something else that could use a coat of paint and swipe off the foam brush and squeeze out roller sleeve excess before they hit the trash can. Waste not want not.

Probably other wee bits I have forgotten. Not to worry, I have two sea kayaks arriving tomorrow in need of repairs and painting, so I get yet another crack at it.


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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: May 31st, 2021, 10:45 am 
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Finally painting now (between other spring projects [like my wife's gardening] and cold & wind it's been slow going). FYI, most practical tips I took from this discussion (I was already going to do it in the garage by roll & tip using a marine paint after proper prep):
- use a small roller, and
- use a push-along dolly for your stuff.

I'm going to pass on wet sanding and just scuff with 320 grit. Will do 3 coats.

P.

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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: May 31st, 2021, 11:03 am 
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yarnellboat wrote:
Finally painting now (between other spring projects [like my wife's gardening] and cold & wind it's been slow going). FYI, most practical tips I took from this discussion (I was already going to do it in the garage by roll & tip using a marine paint after proper prep):
- use a small roller, and
- use a push-along dolly for your stuff.

I'm going to pass on wet sanding and just scuff with 320 grit. Will do 3 coats.

P.


Nice!! I hope you have before and after pics!!

I'm just waiting on a stretch of good weather, I figure one day to sand down and fill any cracks, one day to sand the fill and get one coat of paint on. A third day for a second coat of paint, and depending how she looks then, possibly a 4th day for a 3rd coat.

Looking forward to the results (yours and mine!)


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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: May 31st, 2021, 1:22 pm 
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Location: Freeland, Maryland USA
yarnellboat wrote:
Finally painting now (between other spring projects [like my wife's gardening] and cold & wind it's been slow going). FYI, most practical tips I took from this discussion (I was already going to do it in the garage by roll & tip using a marine paint after proper prep):
- use a small roller, and
- use a push-along dolly for your stuff.
I'm going to pass on wet sanding and just scuff with 320 grit. Will do 3 coats.


Pat, I’ll race you.

No, I won’t; rolling and tipping is best done without rushing, each coat done without interruption. And I have 37 feet of boat in the shop, one 19 footer, one 18.

I will say this, and just posted it again elsewhere, about wet sanding:

[QUOTE=Mike McCrea;n125293] In preparation for a 2nd coat of EZ-Poxy paint I wet sanded the Nomad. 400 grit wrapped in a dish sponge to provide some foam contouring on the everywhere rounded hull bottom. Wet sanded twice, once “all over”, then rinsed. After rinsing any spots I missed sanding are distinctly visible; the water will bead up on the still glossy un-sanded spots, not on the sanded areas.

Spot sand those missed areas and rinse again; done de-glossing, no spots still water beady. Quick and easy work wet sanding that hull; the Nomad may be 19’ feet long (18’ 10” not including the rudder), but it is only 21 ¼” wide, and unlike a canoe I only had to sand the bottom.

Water “streaky” areas are sanded, water beaded spots still need attention.

Hooray for wet sanding! Easier, faster, more thorough and less aggressive than dry sanding a painted surface. And, (this will become more important when sanding the epoxy with graphite powder) no dust.

Even that light touch sponge wrapped 400 grit wet sanding cut through the first layer of paint where there were raised imperfections from previous epoxy “patches [/QUOTE]

I just finished laying the second coat of EZ-Poxy on one wet sanded hull, and it looks mighty good.

68F outside and, with the exhaust fans running, 68F inside. That’s sufficient, but I stuck a radiant oil heater under the cockpit, set on 600w low. A couple hours of that hull-trapped warmth can’t hurt. Helps to reduce humidity a bit as well, more so in a closed shop with the exhaust fans off and windows closed.

Final wet sanding on both boats due in a couple days. Even the 19 year old orange decked companion hull, with once-busted, long ago repaired orange striped chines is looking sharp. Very distinctive, easily identified hull, even at a distance.

ImageP5290029 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

The final paint coats get something new, Pettit EZ-Poxy Performance Enhancer 3021. There are math calculations involved in adding that enhancer. Ugh, math.

AR83 and Yarnellboat, harken back to school assignments. Check your work.

And, please, show your work.


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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: June 1st, 2021, 4:28 pm 
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Second coat of EZ-Poxy on the Nomad. The photo doesn’t show it well, but it is all over glossy, shines like a diamond.

ImageP5310019 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Glossy, and perfect; I’d judge that the best paint coat I have ever rolled and tipped. Had I not planned for a third coat using the performance enhancer I would have stopped there at two. I don’t think I can roll and tip a better coat than that, but I wet sanded it, and hope for as good with the third and final coat.

The black stripe of the Caribou likewise came out very well, but 400 grit wet wouldn’t touch that tough as nails Dynel sleeve, epoxy and graphite powder vee bottom repair. 60 grit with an RO did the trick. Black graphite powder dust is insidious, best done outside with a respirator and goggles.

ImageP6010025 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Followed by 400 wet to remove any remaining gloss and that stripe gets a coat of black EZ-Poxy.


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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: June 3rd, 2021, 10:13 am 
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Mike or others, here's a question I should've asked earlier...

Why roll & tip over just applying directly by brush?

P.

(Reason for this question now: I wetted a brush to give an extra coat to the keel line, then an extra coat to cut-in some of the hard-to-reach spots, then touched up a few thin spots, then, before I knew it, I just did a full 2nd coat by brush. To my eye I don't think the finish looks any different, I don't think it took any longer, and I liked only have one brush to clean up.)

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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: June 3rd, 2021, 12:12 pm 
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yarnellboat wrote:
Mike or others, here's a question I should've asked earlier...

Why roll & tip over just applying directly by brush?


I’m going to go with an Occam’s razor answer. My brush work sucks. Even cutting in wall and ceiling corners with latex paint sucks.

My technique when using a high quality bristle brush and varnish is OK, but I only own one really high quality brush, and I’m not ruining it with EZ-Poxy paint.

I use cheap disposable chip brushes for epoxy or epoxy paints, and other things, which doesn’t help the quality of my brush work. With my poor brush skills the rolling and tipping route, throwing away a foam roller and foam tip out brush, yields the best results.

Three coats of EZ-Poxy rolled and tipped, wet sanded between coats. The deck on that boat may be sun scorched and faded, but the bottom is as good a paint job as I’ve ever accomplished.

ImageP6020005 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

I’m ready to go to work for Mr. Scheib.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Auvf7DDw5z0

Still need to finish the red and black stripes on the one in the background.


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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: June 15th, 2021, 6:52 pm 
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Scratched old Bell Magic solo...

Before & after inside view:

Attachment:
before_inside.jpg


Attachment:
after_inside.jpg


Before & after outside:

Attachment:
before_outside.jpg


Attachment:
after_outside.jpg


Goin' paddlin', Pat.


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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: June 18th, 2021, 6:47 am 
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Pat, looks much better.

How many coats total, two or three?

If the final coat was brush work you have a better hand than I.

Everything else looks better as well; funky top mounted (?) thwarts and carry handles all replaced with under-inwale wood, crapped out deck caps replaced, through-hull webbing for painters. Really nice job.

Having finished the painting was there anything you learned, or anything you would do different?

All it needs now is a strap yoke, and a foot brace, and some minicel knee bumpers, and a sail thwart, and a spray cover. . . . .


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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: June 18th, 2021, 5:41 pm 
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Thought one of you guys might be able to help me, I have an old 18.5 ft Wenonah Odyssey, looking to paint with some EZ-Poxy Burgundy. Am I safe to see what I can do with 1 quart of paint? or will I need more? Thanks!

I'll post pics in the future, just ordering paint and dealing with the many other in-need-of repair aspects of this old beat-up boat at the moment.

Mat


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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: June 19th, 2021, 5:43 am 
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Mat, a quart will easily be enough to do two coats on the Odyssey if rolled and tipped, maybe three. Perhaps Pat can address the paint quantity used if brushed instead of rolled. A single quart of EZ-Poxy laid three (too thick*) coats on my Malecite with some left over.

Don’t freak out when the first coat uses almost half the can, the second or third coat uses much less paint.

*When rolling on any coat you don’t need to slather the paint on thick, it will just be more difficult to tip out smoothly without streaks or sags. And don’t worry is the first rolled & tipped coat appears a little thin in spots, the second coat will cover any holidays.

I was quite proud of the rolling & tipping job on the Malecite, until I saw the quality of the last paint job I did. Much better, and I suspect the coats on the Malecite were rolled too thick.


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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: June 19th, 2021, 11:54 am 
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Mat, depends on how 'safe' you want to be. If you think you'll need 3 coats, and you may want some for touch ups in the future, and if the paint is a paint to order, you might want more than a quart? Is the boat already burgandy/red, or are you painting it from white? I'd say 3 coats on a 18.5' canoe may be possible with a quart, but it would be close. If you really want to be safe, I'd go with more.

Mine was 3 coats, after 2 coats it was patchy with white still showing in spots. I brushed the 2nd coat by accident, the 1st and 3rd were rolled & tipped.

Mike, the aluminum thwarts were factory and installed under the gunwales, I just had them laying on top for the before photo. Changed them out to wood just to get a warmer feel.

With my "painting" job, the biggest pain was the optional non-paint stuff like changing the deck plates & grab loops and putting some supports under the gunwales. A few things I 2nd guess with painting: 1) I sprayed the top of the gunwales to get a "hammered" graphite colour, and (to come back to the start of this thread) spray paint was a pain and gets everywhere, I do like the colour, but it's not that different from straight black, so I'dprobably just brush black next time; 2) I filled a lot of the boat's worst scrapes before painting, but there's always worst scrapes left - is it worth filling a thousand scratches in a boat that has a million? Not sure. 3) Combo re: spray paints & filling scratches - I sprayed on some primer that is supposed to help fill scratches, but again, I think I'd skip the spray paint next time.

That new-paint smell didn't last long though - it's already really scraped up! I'm not that gentle with my boats on a wilderness route, and this week did an overnight that involved hauling through a rock garden and over 20+ beaver dams! The shiny red hull is now a good mix of red & white, looks OK though! As I said, the white hull with aluminum gunwales wasn't doin' it for me. Even scraped up with white scratches, it's still a newer, warmer boat now. Good thing I have lots of left over paint!

Giving a fresh coat to just the bottom of the hull would be no big deal. Taping & painting the gunwales is a bigger deal. Taping (& painting) the mid-section of the Magic was a bit hard because the cheeks of the hull puff out so much beneath the gunwales (or the gunwales are pulled in relative to the wide point of the water line, however you want to look at it), so relative to other canoes there was tight spaces/angles in there.

On the water I had more thoughts on the comfort of the boat than the paint job. Definitely need a yoke and knee bumpers! On a shallow & narrow boat, those sharp aluminum gunwales are brutal on legs! I'm used to deep ww canoes, so the Magic felt like a sit-on-top to me!

Pat.

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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: June 20th, 2021, 7:33 am 
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Pat, to parse:

yarnellboat wrote:
If you think you'll need 3 coats, and you may want some for touch ups in the future, and if the paint is a paint to order, you might want more than a quart? Is the boat already burgandy/red, or are you painting it from white? I'd say 3 coats on a 18.5' canoe may be possible with a quart, but it would be close. If you really want to be safe, I'd go with more.

Mine was 3 coats, after 2 coats it was patchy with white still showing in spots. I brushed the 2nd coat by accident, the 1st and 3rd were rolled & tipped.


Going same-ish hull color with the paint helps in several regards, any thin paint spots do not show as badly, and any scratches at least cut through to a same-ish color (although scratches are still white-ish in any case).

I stopped at two coats of Fire Red on the burgundy MRC Independence despite having lots of paint left. The second coat, rolled and tipped, had fully covered any paint-thin spots and, mostly, I doubted I could do as good a job, with zero streaks or sags, with a third coat.

Pat, any reason you went back to rolling and tipping after brushing the 2nd coat?

Although EZ-Poxy stores fairly well – make sure the uber-thin gasket is in place in the can lip – that stuff is still damn pricey, and I wouldn’t want to end up for 90% of a can left just to assure enough for a third coat. There is an alternative work-around to buying two cans of burgundy (more on that later).

yarnellboat wrote:
I filled a lot of the boat's worst scrapes before painting, but there's always worst scrapes left - is it worth filling a thousand scratches in a boat that has a million? Not sure. Combo re: spray paints & filling scratches - I sprayed on some primer that is supposed to help fill scratches, but again, I think I'd skip the spray paint next time.


Even three coats of paint will fill only the shallowest of scratches. On one badly scratched and worn hull, with a lot of fabric weave showing, I rolled a full coat of epoxy resin first, to help fill the scratches and exposed weave, then wet sanded that before painting. The epoxy coat definitely filled the scratches better than even three coats of paint alone.

yarnellboat wrote:
The shiny red hull is now a good mix of red & white, looks OK though! As I said, the white hull with aluminum gunwales wasn't doin' it for me. Even scraped up with white scratches, it's still a newer, warmer boat now. Good thing I have lots of left over paint!


A two-cans of burgundy alternative would be to buy one can of burgundy and one can of white, and tape/roll/tip a white scuff line bottom, with burgundy from the chines to gunwales. That is an elegant look, done on a lot of higher end composites, and the inevitable white scratches on the bottom won’t show as contrastingly.

Of course you might end up with two half cans left, one burgundy, one white, but more paint in the can keeps more better, and if you had another hull that needed similar painting . . . . .

yarnellboat wrote:
On the water I had more thoughts on the comfort of the boat than the paint job. Definitely need a yoke and knee bumpers! On a shallow & narrow boat, those sharp aluminum gunwales are brutal on legs! I'm used to deep ww canoes, so the Magic felt like a sit-on-top to me!


Yes to minicel knee bumpers! And yes to a webbing strap yoke. I wouldn’t want to use a strap yokes for long, difficult portages (are are a thing of the past for me anyway), but for racks to car and car to water, or short, easy carries, an always there strap yoke is wonderful.

ImagePC180134 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr


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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: June 20th, 2021, 2:12 pm 
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I’m going to link to an imgur album as I’ve uploaded some videos too:

https://imgur.com/gallery/fnWEuZF

So I understand now the huge benefit of painting indoors instead of outdoors. I didn’t have a choice unfortunately, but after each coat there was debris the next day stuck on. A quick wet sand got rid of most of it tho, thankfully. I did the third coat Thursday afternoon, and we got a lot of rain Friday morning so it worked out well to keep the last coat looking good.

It turned out better than I thought it would, as my painting skills were non existent before this. I really enjoyed it. I would probably splurge on a nicer paint roller, but the brushes for tipping were fine.

Thanks to all in here for the tips, tricks and advice!


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 Post subject: Re: Paint options
PostPosted: June 20th, 2021, 8:33 pm 
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AR, that paint job looks sweet! Congrats!

Mike and Pat, thanks for all the advice, the boat has a burgundy gelcoat, however a lot of the geloat has been pounded away. I think I am going to try for a single quart job, and will be sure to thoroughly prep the hull with epoxy resin before paint so I don't have any cracks or exposed cloth to fill (there is a lot). The gelcoat on the sides is in okay shape. And these spray deck loops are sure to be fun...

I've attached a pic.

I do like the burgundy with the white bottom idea, reminds me of a mint condition Langford canoe I saw for sale for $400 CAD, with that same colour combo. Messaged the seller 5 minutes after posting and they were already swimming in offers.

Thanks again!


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